Pueo

Just some short points about the Pueo for those of you that are interested. I had a chance to paddle the boat in
Kailua Bay, Pinky's canal.

what I liked:
- very good glide in flat water - competitive with the Hurricane
- very well balanced - the ama comes up with every stroke, yet the boat does not feel tippy.
- single foot well - comfortable
- seat, Fusion style - comfortable
- set up - ama easy to attach, three snaps and one screw - very well done
- very responsive steering - even on the waves the boat goes easily right and left
- very easy take off downwind
- didn't feel the ama

anything to improve ?
- the boat felt light - actually 18 lbs. For me a little more weight would be fine. This particular boat did not have the new and slightly heavier core material yet.
- while surfing downwind the boat takes off very well, but you need to keep paddling for max efficiency. It's not like a Zephyr that runs on it's own once it's going. A question of mass ?
- I know it's not realistic due to material cost and labor: it would be nice if all OC 1s could be offered at lower prices.
Maybe a fiberglass layup with a real thick core and less high tech materials overall could be an option.
- it is not a high volume boat; I weigh about 205/210, no problems though.
- the foot well should be placed according to customer needs - tall, average, small. I felt that I was sitting slightly behind the sweet spot; Kamanu composites is considering this feature for the future.

Afterwards, I went to the factory and had a look: very impressive, this is serious business. One of the hulls was being prepared for layup. It had a new core material, really nice stuff, probably 8 - 9 mm thick, and stiff. Nice tooling, all professional grade. Waiting time for a boat is 3 1/2 months at this time. Three different prices according to layup/core material used.

After paddling a variety of boats in the recent past I can assure you: it's not the engine, it's the boat ! :).

Tommy Connor's Striker and this Pueo are my current favorites.

I remain loyal to the Fusion when it get's big - the further out we paddle, the more I appreciate that boat's sturdiness.

PS: Goodwaka, keep your rudderless stuff, go get yourself a ....... :)

Submitted by eckhart on Sun, 10/12/2008 - 10:14am



No rudder needed for real surfing. Your rudder steered outrigger ski is no good for hollow North shore barrels.


#1 Sun, 10/12/2008 - 12:30pm


Tahitians dominate Molokai.

Tahitians favor rudderless individual boats.

Correlation?

Hmmmm.
~~~~~~~~~~
YankeeHo'okele
"Anyone can steer the ship when the sea is calm" - Syrus Publilius


#2 Sun, 10/12/2008 - 12:36pm


Got to be a strong argument for that


#3 Sun, 10/12/2008 - 12:37pm


Tahitians dominate Molokai.

Tahitians favor Hinano and cigarettes.

Correlation?

Hmmmm.


#4 Sun, 10/12/2008 - 1:30pm


Shell va'a leading by 4 Km was amazing..... now your'e saying they smoke cigarettes too..... Gobsmacked!
Who needs a rudder when when all it takes is cigarettes.


#5 Sun, 10/12/2008 - 5:23pm


Hiro C;
Maybe you can give some more info.....OK Hinano is tops, but which cigarette brand is the fastest


#6 Sun, 10/12/2008 - 6:04pm


"Bison"
You will not find it anywhere. It's brown tobacco, so strong that they can't sell it anywhere else in the world. (Does not meet European or American regulations). You have to roll your cigarettes by yourself, no filter !


#7 Sun, 10/12/2008 - 8:00pm


Oh, that kind....then weve been fooled because it burns so badly that you need to blow into the paper tube to keep it alight. Saves the lungs from harm of smoke inhalation.


#8 Sun, 10/12/2008 - 9:38pm


Or use your lighter 10 times for one cigarette. You end up not smoking halt of it because you burn your nose with the lighter... ;-)


#9 Mon, 10/13/2008 - 9:34am


Hinano, Marlboro Rouge, Rudderless, and 4 hours of practice 6 times a week at a club site with weights, V1's, V6's, ans sponsor money... It's a great combination.
:)

But honestly it's the Jack Daniels.


#10 Mon, 10/13/2008 - 11:51am


eckhart,
sorry for hijacking... ;-)


#11 Mon, 10/13/2008 - 12:25pm


eckhart,

IWas the 18 pound boat the demo boat ?


#12 Mon, 10/13/2008 - 3:40pm


According to Kamanu, yes. It was mentioned as a side note.

I am sure that some people will move up in the field with this boat.


#13 Wed, 10/15/2008 - 1:58am


kamanu


#14 Tue, 10/14/2008 - 8:26pm


Thanks for the props Eckhart. Strikers only available to immediate family and close personal friends. Lanikai has been working on their stroke rate. 2007 #1 crew was at 65-66. 2008 #1 crew at 70-72. Shell improved their time over last year by 2 minutes. Lanikai improved their time by 14 minutes. It all depends on how flexible the individuals are to adapt to changes in the application. Some people are rigid and inflexible and not able to make the transition. This years crew had no problem with the higher rate but ran a little short on fuel in the last hour of the race.


#15 Tue, 10/14/2008 - 9:04pm


You're welcome. We had one morning when a paddle buddy wanted to demonstrate that it's the engine and not the boat - so he let me try his Striker. The result was that the Striker made a definite difference.

Got to build my own boat now; actually I have started doing it. I have some ideas and just want to see if they will work. It might take a while.

Lanikai did great.


#16 Wed, 10/15/2008 - 1:52am


oops


#17 Wed, 10/15/2008 - 1:59am


Echart,
build your boat, you wont regret it, its a lot of work, time and money, but if you love paddling, you will do it even more in your own boat.......

Aloha!


#18 Wed, 10/15/2008 - 2:00am


i have been told that the ultra-lites are about 20-21 lbs and standard are around 23 lbs, it seems like a pretty standard weight in nowadays canoes. I tried the demo as well, downwind and surfing was as expected, but flat and up-hill was phenomenal. Loved the new ama.


#19 Wed, 10/15/2008 - 5:44am


just to clarify---
the demo that Eckhart used was actually an ultra light coremat lay-up. The standard demo and the standard canoes that we build are as paddle_easy said, and between 20-23 pounds.


#20 Wed, 10/15/2008 - 9:06am


Hi Luke,

Below is ASSuming you are not already using coremat as std.

If you guys are getting 18 pounds or even under 20 with the coremat, are you gonna stick with it ?

Performance is there, fast to build, EZ to repair + lower cost to pass on to buyers.


#21 Wed, 10/15/2008 - 11:22am


Looks like the tahitians, discovered the PUEO!


#22 Wed, 10/15/2008 - 8:59pm


Last I checked...Puni is Hawaiian....


#23 Wed, 10/15/2008 - 9:29pm


Don't let the Tahitian blade fool you.

Moku Nui
Big Island Roots

Is on the Ama.

Also, got to see a Pueo today when Mel Puu came paddling on by our group of OC-1's paddling around. All I can say is NICE!!!


#24 Wed, 10/15/2008 - 10:36pm


It`s been awhile since this thread was up for comment , just wondering if theres any new info to add here about Pueo , its performance , speed, handling , comfort, that kind of thing .


#25 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 4:34am


Have there ever been "scientific " testing on hulls.

Like wind tunnel testing but through water to test things like drag.

Someone with a Phd (or a good supply of Macgiver brain cells) must be able to come up with reproducible water drag, float, lift tests that could help demystify the OC world.

Most other sports have such tests (except ping pong I think) lets see some good science instead of he said she said, unless he and she are Phd wicked paddlers....


#26 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 6:04am


You'd be surprised at how high tech table tennis (ping pong) bats are now.


#27 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 6:26am


"Have there ever been “scientific ” testing on hulls.

Like wind tunnel testing but through water to test things like drag.

Someone with a Phd (or a good supply of Macgiver brain cells) must be able to come up with reproducible water drag, float, lift tests that could help demystify the OC world."--

This post contradicts your forum name :)


#28 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 9:03am


Pardon me for this double post, but I just found this thread on the Pueo and having posted this comment in another thread, thought I should cut and paste it here.

~~~

I’ve had one opportunity to try the Pueo (with the new ama, old seat and cormat "soft" layup) and although the ama may look as flat as a 4x4, it did not plow like my bixler could with an inattentive port side paddle stroke. It did not “stick”, and felt well balanced. So initially, I am intrigued. I’d like to get a feeling for it in the surf though as I love to surf and work downwind runs. I think it’s refreshing to see a “new” design come to the market of OC-1 products that are so often similar and borrowed (or stolen!) from year after year. My impression of the Pueo in general was that it was responsive, had very little rocker (ama and hull), and that it had a lot of volume in the front for its size class (peggy, hurricane, etc). Being a bigger guy, this volume gave me a confidence downwind that I don’t feel in the Pegasus (which pearls in surf for me easily). But the lack of rocker makes me wonder how it performs in swelly following sea conditions compared to others. Hopefully I’ll have another opportunity to try one again in some good seas. Congratulations to Kamanu for bringing something new to the marketplace!


#29 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 9:30am


Wow, that " paddle easy "dude has a great set of ideas...


#30 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 9:57am


"Pulled from a google search"..

What makes a boat move faster?
Generally speaking, the speed of a boat is the result of the power propelling it forward (effective propulsion) and the resistance of the water to this effort.
You can generate power with a motor, a sail or the human body.
The displacement of a boat creates many types of resistance, all of which except Frictional Resistance ('skin friction') are included in the term 'Residual Resistance' (RR).
The faster the boat goes the more the Residual Resistance becomes the main problem to overcome.

Froude and the practical meaning of 'Hull Speed'
In order to understand this complex subject we must first present it a very simplified form: The main effort in overcoming Residual resistance consists of
1. 'Pushing' water up and aside from the bow, and
2. 'Pulling' the boat away from the water behind the stern, that is overcoming a 'suction' effect.
A longer boat (longer waterline) will keep the water from filling back that space for a longer time. This means that a long boat could go faster than a shorter boat before that significant increase in residual resistance occurs. When this happens a big wave can be seen coming from the stern, and a second big wave is formed at the bow, and from that moment on the boat seems to be moving between the crests of these two waves.

William Froude showed that the speed of waves in knots = 1.34 x L^1/2 where L is the boat's length in feet.
Froude discovered that as the boat's speed increases the number of waves along the hull decreases until the boat moves between a big wave at the bow and a big wave at the stern. From this point increasing the boat's speed becomes much more difficult, or in other words the boat reached its 'Hull Speed'.
A boat 100% longer than another will have a nominal hull speed that's about 42% higher (0.42 linear correlation). For example: the hull speed of a 20 ft boat is 6 knots and that of a 10 ft boat is 4.23 knots.
However, the longer boat could generate 100% more skin friction (Fr) and consequently moving it at its higher hull speed will require adding more than 42% in power.

Hull speed is just another term taken into consideration in the process of designing a boat, and taken out of a broader context it is meaningless: If you made your house watertight and put it in the water it would have a higher hull speed than the world's fastest paddlesports boat just because it is longer... It doesn't mean the house would actually be a fast vessel.
Hull speed is by no means a final limitation on speed, and it's very common for boats, including human powered ones to go faster than their hull speed.

Different strategies for increasing boat speed
1. Add power: With a strong engine and a big budget for fuel you don't have to worry too much about the energy spent on going faster than your 'hull speed'. The same goes for a stable sailing boat with lots of sail power.
If you want to add power to a human powered boat you need to find a way to add more groups of muscles to the propulsion effort by offering the user/s a better posture i.e. biomechanical improvements, and/or means to reduce discomfort and fatigue i.e. ergonomic improvements.
2. Add length: That's applying a 'delaying' strategy - You delay the occurrence of the steep increase in residual resistance by paying in increased frictional resistance that you get from having a longer hull. This strategy is good as long as you have the additional power needed to overcome the additional friction. Another problem you'd have to deal with is a decrease in your boat's maneuverability, which is more of a problem in human powered boats where the additional power needed for maneuvering is taken away from propulsion.
3. Reduce residual resistance: A good strategy for a human powered boat with only human muscles for propulsion. Very thin racing canoes and kayaks generate relatively little residual resistance even after when they go at speeds that are higher than their hull speed - This is why they create relatively small waves.

The boat's 'fineness', often described by its Length to Beam ratio (L/B) at waterline is most useful for predicting its speed: An ICF K1 racing kayak has an L/B of 11:1. This kind of boats have low displacement and are very 'fine', which makes it possible to paddle them at up to twice their hull speed.

Speed in human powered boats
Adding power for propulsion is not relevant for canoes and kayaks unless the boat is designed to carry more paddlers (i.e. have more power), but it's good to keep in mind that a boat offering a better paddling position, improved stability and control, and the comfort of being able to reduce fatigue and prevent injury by changing positions adds to the paddler's effective propulsion and therefore may achieve and sustain higher speed.
The Comfort factor and the ability to sustain the physical effort over a longer period of time with less fatigue and no injury pertains to Ergonomics, and the effective power available per paddle stroke pertains to Biomechanics.

Making the boat longer is good for as long as increasing surface area does not end up in slowing you down.
Reducing Residual resistance is severely limited by the width of the person sitting in the boat but why sit inside the hull?...
-Rowing shells are faster than racing kayaks not only because of their great length but also due to the fact the rower sits on top a hull that's narrower than his waist - A rowing shell's L/B is much higher than that of any racing kayak.

Displacement/Length (D/L)

"High speeds for canoes are only made possible through their having excellent Displacement/Length ratios and narrow beams. The two combine to produce very small waves which are the major resistance at speeds above S/L 1.34."
-John Winters, "The Shape of the Canoe" http://boatbuilding.com/content/Redwing.html#Sprint%20racin


#31 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 10:16am


Oop,s sorrry guys and gals,

cut and pasted a little much, but I bet you got to get a second cup of coffee to get through that schmozzle....


#32 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 10:18am


Good on ye' jibofo for calling 'em by the proper name.

If you have the conditions and time for it ... a simple, real world ) drag comparison test could be done in a river or a narrow tidal channel and a scale.


#33 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 11:06am


So when do we get this test going.....????

Table Tennis most likely had done some good science testing on their bats / rackets that's why they are so good....

For a quick laugh see the movie "Balls of Fury" it's the "Slap Shot" of the Table Tennis World....

No Oscars though...


#34 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 11:32am


A few points on measuring drag:

  1. The medium (air or water) doesn't matter as long as you meet the correct conditions for model and prototype (the real object) similarity. For the case of measuring drag, this would be making sure the model and prototype were operating at either the same Reynolds number or the same Froude number, which give the balance between viscous and inertial forces (Reynolds) and gravitational and inertial forces (Froude).
  2. For something like a submarine or a fully submersed object, testing in a wind tunnel would be no different than testing in a water tunnel provided that Reynolds number similarity was obeyed since there is no free surface (air-water interface)
  3. For a boat or other partially submerged object, Froude number similarity is required, so testing in a wind or water tunnel isn't going to do much good since the medium is homogenous and you would be measuring the drag of the entire form, not just what would actually be submerged.
  4. Some final notes on measuring drag on a ship hull. The way this is typically done (and Keizo please correct me if I'm wrong on this, I'm in Civil so we aren't typically interested in drag on objects) is using a tow tank where the appropriate speed needed for Froude number similarity are easily achieved.
  5. If you actually wanted to move the water past the hull instead of the other way around, it gets more complicated because you have to verify a lot about the flow instead of just having quiescent fluid around the hull. Either way (tow tank or flume), it's expensive to have the right facility. My lab just received two new flumes (think an open channel with pumps to drive flow) that cost about $300,000 each. Think on the scale of a ship model and you need a very long tank which gets surprisingly expensive.

Okay, way too much technical stuff there and I didn't even explain myself that well. Sorry for the nerd moment.


#35 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 11:38am


What nerd moment :) ?


#36 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 11:50am


Thanks anowara, I knew the info was there and I'm sure the great canoe designers and builders use these concepts.

I hope to get a chance to take a Pueo for a rip one day too...


#37 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 11:57am


As I started this thread, maybe I should add some more impressions:

Over the last two weeks I have paddled Zephyr and a little bit Pueo.

Zephyr:
Pro:
a fully matured product coming with balanced design, attention to detail and very high quality build.
It can be extremely fast, often the fastest boat that I have been on, in following waves.
Extremely comfortable, moves well upwind.
I did some small scale speed comparisons for myself - faster than the Fusion in the flats.
Paddling with friends downwind in medium, I came in ahead, which would not have happened on my Hurricane ( best in flatter conditions ).
Cons:
Haven't completely figured out the ama set up yet, though I like it much more than on the first days.
From a stall, it takes me some energy to get going again - aren't we all getting older. Solution: know the ocean better.

Did I say that it is a beautiful boat ?

Pueo:
Pro:
Has improved my surfing abilities in medium conditions. The energy that I need to get going after a stall is a little less. Does well overall, flat water maybe just a touch worse than the Huricane.
Cons:
I have used diffferent ama set ups, have not found the right set up for medium following waves. This what I am working on right now.
The deck design is not quite as matured as the Zephyr design.

As always these are only my personal observations. I'd prefer if more people would share their opinions - that would give a better overall picture.


#38 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 9:31pm


Thats one of the best personal opinion comparisons that seems to have no bias. Thanks for that.


#39 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 8:16pm


For sure two of my favorites ...

After my first time seeing the Pueo I just had to call Keizo and tell him nice f-ing job man.

The Zephyr has a that 'evolved' look to it owning up to previous designs ... Comparing only on concept ... sort of like how Chevy keeps refining the Suburban or Porsche did the 911.

my .02.


#40 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 8:27pm


I have a Zephyr. I have to admit that I have never paddled a Pueo because I do not want to want one!


#41 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 8:29pm


jpi92109, unfortunatley I do not have, for example, a Scorpius to have a more complete opinion about different boat designs.

It is well worth looking at the past development of OC1:

There are only a few names that have advanced this art.
Among those, you have to give Outrigger Connection extraordinary credit:
almost all details of today's designs come out of his workshop.
Outrigger Connection has by far put out the most models in this relatively short period of ~ 15 years.

I think that this should be recognized by the paddling community. As well as all the other contributors, Tommy Connors, Walter Guild, and Paul Gay, John Martin etc.. But again, look at the volume and the quality of that work.

It is no surprise that a boat like the Zephyr is the measuring stick, imo, and it should be.

The Pueo is different from that. It is a boat from a younger company, based on the designs from Johnny Puakea.

The Pueo - to me - gives the average guy the feeling that he can paddle, too.
The Hurricane gives you that same feeling when you step on it, but rather in flatter conditions. Pueo takes this feeling into the medium stuff.

When you think about the speeds that Karel Jr must achieve with the Zephyr during his races, up to 20 ! miles/hour. Just hard to imagine that speed.
To show the difference: I had a Garmin with me one day, and thought I had a short and pretty fast ride - yeah, 9 miles/hour or so - I think it was on a Hurricane around the Mokuleas.

So how do you get to 12, 13, 14 mph speeds ? It must be a different way of paddling using the ocean in a way that I can not see. It is obvious that Karel's boats excell in these conditions. Starting in 2000 with the Mantra the speed performance gap to the surfskis closed by 30 min. - amazing, it was an Outrigger Connectin design that did that first.

So there you go - all of this is fascinating. I realize that it would be nice to try a Scorpius, just to see how it behaves.

One thing I want to mention here: I do not post because I think that my opinion has any importance, but rather to hear what other people think about a topic that is very interesting and entertaining.


#42 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 9:32pm


give in jpi92109, the grass is really greener over here


#43 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 9:31pm


didnt keizo go to college for an aeronautical degree? air drag and water drag are probably alot like, of course water will give more drag, but i would imagine that they would both come up with similar results.


#44 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 10:25pm


congrats to eckhart for the most non biased reviews i think i have ever read.

i find it interesting that we come back to the use of air drag for modeling watercraft. i remember not too long ago when i was ridiculed on the forum for even thinking something like that could produce useful data.

too bad no one has been able to give an opinion on the scorpius, my curiosity has been piqued.


#45 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 10:46pm


Hey Tommy - can I qualify for one of your boats?


#46 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 10:58pm


Id love to ear such a good review of all 3 as well.

Again, just a question, but for the average paddler (meaning not kai, Karel, Danny, Manny, etc) would you really seriously shop the Pueo vs a Scorpius if you knew youd be mostly big water paddling or flat water paddling? Most reviews seem to say the Pueo is more for smaller to medium and Zephyr and Scorpius for medium to big. However ive heard some testimony that the Scorpius is just plain fast anywhere?

Sounds like we need to get Eckhart a Scorpius for a week!


#47 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 11:01pm


Not sure if Kai has a rep on Oahu. The fun thing is that even my self made low volume boat has its own character and does some things better than other boats. We all should have two or three boats, check the weather in the morning and take our pick.

Another thing that comes into play: how comfortable is your boat after 2 hours in longer races ?


#48 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 12:16am


Regarding coremat layup, noticed a few (almost 20 year old) RoseSkis in last year's ILH kayak races. They appeared to be aging very well and holding their own against the latest state of the art skis. Imagine these coremat and polyester skis sold for $700.00 brand new and are still around. So on a marginal cost basis, maybe a standard coremat layup Pueo could go for under $2,000.00? (I'm dreamingzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)


#49 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 1:21am


I'd be in pretty good nick too if i had a thick quality gelcoat covering my exterior for 20 years. The skis these days are built for a short life time compared to the oldies.

Rambo


#50 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 1:45am


20 miles per hour on a Zephyr !!, that is absolutely amazing.


#51 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 4:27am


What about seat position on the Pueo. One of the factors I used in purchasing a Zephyr over a Hurricane is that I am 6'3 and race at about 200 lbs.

Because I have long legs I had to have the seat on the Hurricane to the farthest back setting. That forced the boat to "squat" when I put good force on the blade. There was just not enough volume in the tail to support me in my comfortable position. I read that some of the posts address the front end volume being better that the hurricane.

Some tall guys may have shorter legs and thus be more in the sweet spot. Is there good seat adjustment in the Pueo, and how did it handle some taller paddlers, some which weigh in in the 220 region.


#52 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 6:27am


hey eck,
youre a lanikai guy, couldnt you get a scorpious from the dolans for a day? when i bought my boat here kai had his friend doug from hawaii kai distribute his baots and had pegasus demos. that was like 4 years ago or so. hit up kai and ask. im sure if he does he'd let you know.


#53 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 8:03am


i am 6'1" 190 lbs. (32" inseam) i can only compare a Kainalu to a Pueo since those are the only boats I've ever owned or paddled. in my very biased and uneducated opinion the Pueo works great for my size. sorry i'm not in the 200 - 220 pound range, but i do have a ass as wide as a house. at my weight and height there is still a bunch of length (and about an inch in width) left in the seat, and i in no way feel like i am sinking the tail. in the Pueo i feel like i ride higher and can get more leverage than i could on the Kainalu. the seat isn't adjustable, but i've gone by the Kamanu shop twice for help with reshaping my seat. both times they did it for me in about 5 minutes, and each time made a big difference in comfort. if you have the seat shaped right, 2 hrs + shouldn't be a problem.

once again, i am biased, these two boats are the only two "modern" one man's i have paddled.


#54 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 8:23am


Just Paddle _ I move the foot well 6 inch forward on a Hurricane - it makes a definite difference.

Pueo does well as it is. However, if I owned one, I would likely move the foot wells by three inches forward - no good reason except that it seems enough volume up front to do that.


#55 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 8:29am


Eck,

Mahalo for attempting to take a quantitative look at what has always been a bit mysterious concerning OC-1 comparisons. It may always be subjective I know, but I think you are the first to begin compiling the data.

If you are still looking for a Scorpius, Kai Wa'a's Rep on O'ahu is Doug Locke. If you can't get your hands on a Scorpius from the Dolans, try reaching Doug on his cell at 366-5505. He may or may not have one in his quiver at hand, but maybe his network might. Good Luck.


#56 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 10:01am


last nerd moment:

didnt keizo go to college for an aeronautical degree? air drag and water drag are probably alot like, of course water will give more drag, but i would imagine that they would both come up with similar results.

and

i find it interesting that we come back to the use of air drag for modeling watercraft. i remember not too long ago when i was ridiculed on the forum for even thinking something like that could produce useful data.

From an engineering perspective, fluid is fluid, we don't care what you call it since it is the fundamental properties of a fluid which generate various forces like drag. So air drag and water drag, given a few assumptions, are exactly alike, but will give different values for the actual drag force since things like viscosity and density differ between the two fluids.

Going back to the similarity stuff I mentioned in my previous post, the idea behind Reynolds number or Froude number similarity is that the ratio of the important forces is the same between the model and prototype. So, for instance the Froude number for a ship hull is defined as

Fr = V / sqrt(g * L)

where V is the velocity, g is acceleration due to gravity, and L is the hull length. By forcing Fr to a certain value (say 1), you can alter the hull length and calculate the velocity needed for testing. This ensure the balance between inertial (V) and gravity (sqrt(g * L)) remains the same regardless of scale.

Testing in a wind or water tunnel would be useful for looking at a fully submerged object where Reynolds number similarity is required for testing, like a rudder or surfboard skegs. It's not so useful for testing a ship hull.

I think Keizo got a degree in Mechanical and Aerospace engineering, which is about as broad a field as Civil engineering (no, I don't build bridges and I'm closer to a physicist than an engineer). But he at the least got a very good background in fluid mechanics, aerodynamics, etc.


#57 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 9:45am


I'm impressed! Regarding Keizo, for the guy went to RPI (Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute), which is a cut above MIT. You gotta have the smarts and brains to get in there. Right on for a local guy from Kauai to go there and match wits with all the top minds.


#58 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 10:26am


as I have been told in the past - I am a "freak of nature." Thanks Goto if you are listening....

I am a 6'-7", about 223lb paddler (just for comparison - 37" inseam).

I have tried several canoes (mostly hurricanes, huki's, and a few others), in an attempt to get one that actually fits..... well, I found it - the Pueo.... Keizo, Luke, and the rest of the guys have made an amazing canoe that I would completely suggest you try out. I was worried about ever finding a boat that I could feel comfortable in, and they did a great job accomodating me.

yeah, we don't get the epic waves here (Seattle) that you guys might get, but she cuts through all the water conditions up here like you wouldn't believe.

I wasn't sure what to expect with it, but I have easily cut down my average speed a lot by using this canoe, or atleast that is what my gps tells me.

I have to say, it definately feels lighter and a bit more "tippy" than others, but that is one of the reasons it rips through the water. There is a fine line between paddling and swimming, but once you get use to the way the runs, it is great....

if you have any questions, shout them out to me.....


#59 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 10:39am


I've ripped the Zephyr and I'm biased toward my Pueo. Part of the rip is perhaps my own inability to keep the Zephyr moving in the flats. The biggest advantage the Zephyr seems to offer is in big conditions which aren't there all the time for most of us. The Pueo seems to do better for a broader range of conditions and a broader range of paddler-types.
I'm not sure how to judge maturity in deck design, but my Kaimana had a bulge where the front iako enters the hull. Any time I went through chop it would spray a good load of water in my face. With the quality of our west coast water in the winter, not always just refreshing. The Pueo doesn't have this problem. Evolution = maturity.
Best conclusion I agree with: Have more then one boat. :)


#60 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 11:24am


Kea Pa'aina is a Kai Waa rep now as well. He can be reached at 386-5327.


#61 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 11:42am


KoK - it is entirely subjective and the criteria used are not strong by any means.

If 100 people give their opinion, you will get an idea.

For a fair assessment we need to look at the framework:

let's say we do a 'shoot out' in the canal:

First 20 yards
First 100 yards
500 yards
One mile

and have the paddlers rotate so that every paddler has done those four on every boat, record the times and post it.

We would still know nothing about wave action and long distance performance, comfort, durability, price to performance ratio ... ... ...

On the other hand, we would have some interesting data, and a buyer may use some of the data to find out what he wants, depending where he or she paddles etc.


#62 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 12:43pm


removed - double post


#63 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 12:44pm


Damn, you guys are KILLING ME! My Pueo is on order and the more posts I read, the harder it is to wait.


#64 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 1:40pm


This subjective info was taken from oc1design.blogspot.com. 10 consumer reviews of each. Whoever it was that posted reviews thought the Pueo was pretty good in the big stuff too.


#65 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 8:49pm


just one more comment, to say someone is moving a canoe at 20 mph on a regular basis is kinda silly.

solo 32 miles.

32 miles at 20 mph = a time of 1.6 hours or 1 hour 36 minutes and 4 seconds.

even if it takes 8 miles to get up to speed, and say the last 8 miles by Oahu are slower, that would imply you can do half the race in 48 minutes and the rest at around 5 or 6 mph.

people may peak at 20 mph on several occasions, but it is doubtful that speed is maintained.

you might want to double check my math. i didn't go to RPI or MIT.
ok back to meaningful discussion.


#66 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 10:15pm


a really really fast wave


#67 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 10:20pm


This thread is pretty much getting like one of those 'infomercials' you see on TV at 2 am ...


#68 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 11:41pm


On a regular basis ? No, you're right, that is not meant in the post. These are absolut peak values, and I do not know if 20 have actually been met/exceeded, but it has been close.


#69 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 11:44pm


Its` huge fun to go for these "peak values " just to see how fast you can make your boat go .

Last year , while paddling on very cold water in a small craft advisory , I saw 16 mph on the GPS while paddling a Fuze.

If I hadnt been so scared of falling in the cold water , I might have seen 20 or so on that day . A bunch of us were out on the water that day , it was memorable to say the least.


#70 Thu, 01/08/2009 - 2:48am


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