Super aito 2007

Submitted by luke on Mon, 10/20/2008 - 7:53am



105 comments

The second half of the video is all upwind.... that's how good those guys are.


#1 Mon, 10/20/2008 - 7:55am


yeah Luke,
i been watching more and more this videos, and begining to get hooked on the idea of starting rudderless......makes so much sense....

mahalo for the video!


#2 Mon, 10/20/2008 - 9:53am


Hey Luke, thanks for posting that, some really good footage in there. Looks like we will have rudderless in OZ very soon, the plug is in the mold as we speak.

Cheers Rambo


#3 Mon, 10/20/2008 - 1:45pm


Yep awsome footage.
Does anyone know who the paddlers were?

And when it comes to rudderless..... into the wind is the easy stuff. It is when the wind is behind you, that you have to have the skill.

Rambo, ruderless OC1 have been here in Aus for some time. Surfrigger and Seahorse (same hull) have been top rudderless crafts for years.

The good thing about those 2 craft... is that they come with a rudder so you get the best of both OC1 and Va'a.

will your craft have the same option?
Any clues...will it be cockpit or sit on top?
I love paddling rudderless. I look forward to your release.


#4 Mon, 10/20/2008 - 2:28pm


Yes, i've ridden the Surfrigger many times rudderless our club has 2 of them.

The Mold and plug is not mine, a friend has it, it is a V1 brought back from Tahiti in 3 pieces. I think it could be a Timi Va'a, but could be wrong. Love the Surfrigger in the flat but not sure how it goes in the ocean, some of the newer Tahitian Va'a seem different.

Definitely be a sit-in genuine Va'a

UPDATE ..... I WAS WRONG IT IS A VA'A FACTORY CANOE not a TIMI VA'A and it's on the water today, i should get a ride this weekend.

Cheers Rambo


#5 Tue, 10/21/2008 - 6:32pm


Does anyone know the story of why V1s have cockpits?

From what I've seen on this video and the 2008 videos that have been posted, most of the Tahitian V1s have less volume in the bow than the Surfrigger, or at least the one Savage River in the U.S. makes.

Luke - nice editing. Any more info on the Kamanu V1 you can share?


#6 Mon, 10/20/2008 - 2:55pm


When we were in Tahiti, the director of the Super Aito told us that a va'a has a cockpit, it doesn't matter if it has a rudder or not, but it has to have a cockpit to be considered a va'a. After hearing that, it seemed to make sense--- seeing as how the V1 came from the V6 it's natural for it to have a cockpit, and the OC-1 came from the Surf Ski, so it's natural for it to be sit on.

Our V1 is still in development, we're definitely working on it, but it's going to be awhile.


#7 Mon, 10/20/2008 - 3:34pm


Luke - Guess that answers that regarding the cockpit. It does make some sense... funny that the distinguishing characteristic we all focus on (rudder) has nothing to do with what the Tahitians use to define a V1...

Are you coming up with your own design for the V1? Someone in one of the other threads said you all were just licensing a design. Doesn't make too much difference if it's still a ways off, but from the reviews of the Pueo I'd be excited to see your all's take on a V1!

Thanks for posting, this stuff is great!


#8 Mon, 10/20/2008 - 4:31pm


Luke, do these va'a have foot braces?


#9 Mon, 10/20/2008 - 5:32pm


When the paddling World Champions begin paddling fully decked 6mans with holes in the bottom for water to come in up to the waterline, then an OC1 deserves recognition as a Polynesian craft.


#10 Mon, 10/20/2008 - 9:08pm


Goodwaka, you have to admit the sit on top design is smart thinking for large ocean conditions where the cockpit of a V1 would most likely fill with water. Whether it qualifies for a Polynesian craft or not is irrelevant, the Hawaiian Oc1 evolved in that direction because of the local conditions.

I admire and respect both designs irrespective of origin.

Cheers Rambo


#11 Mon, 10/20/2008 - 9:19pm


Nice shot goodwaka !


#12 Mon, 10/20/2008 - 9:20pm


I don't get your logic Rambo... a 6mans cockpit fills with water too, and it is a Polynesian canoe. There are ways and means to cope with keeping water out of the cockpit and still handle large Ocean conditions just as Polynesian canoes do.
You imply that a surfski type craft is better suited to large Ocean conditions, so why is a Hawaiian OC 6 not a sit on


#13 Mon, 10/20/2008 - 10:05pm


I guess it's no more "logical" than you suggesting OC6 should have holes in the bottom of the hull. I understood your intent claiming Hawaiian Canoes don't qualify as Polynesian in your eyes, but I'm simply stating that maybe you should accept that neither Tahitian nor Hawaiian is superior, they just evolved for different reasons.

Cheers Rambo


#14 Mon, 10/20/2008 - 10:34pm


Rambo, what you don't seem to understand -- perhaps because Steve West has not written a book explaining the facts -- is that there has always existed a Polynesian outrigger techno-complex. This an ISLAND based industry, even though it has for a long time included imported materals -- Ancient Hawaiians carved canoes from logs foated over from mainland America, and contemporary Tahitians build composite va'a from imported materials. All are Polynesian outriggers.
In contrast, mainland American aerospace technology has created an industry to produce a new type of beachtoy and China has got in on the act. Now we are supposed to believe that this is a "Hawaiian OC".
If you really think that the Polynesian ellement of outrigger canoeing is irrelevant, then why are you selling the "Hawaiian" label


#15 Tue, 10/21/2008 - 7:39am


alright, i'll bite,

so this "american aerospace technology" doesn't occur in tahitian or new zealand va'a? modern tahitian va'a is carved out of wood? why is tahitian fiberglass and carbon fiber v1 ("american aerospace technology" as you say) still "polynesian", but hawaiian oc1 not?

do you have an issue with the designers of oc1- that they are not of hawaiian blood- so if they were, does that make the oc1 hawaiian- your argument says no

the whole china issue is a very recent phenomenon, so did the oc1 become a beachtoy after the manufacturing was moved to china- i suspect you would feel that way regardless of where it was built, whether in china or kailua.

did the aerospace industry get into the oc1 making business? lockheed martin stealth oc1? the same island based industry created the original oc1's, so what makes them different from the creators of the va'a?

what's you point of contention? the sit on top model? the materials? the origin of manufacture? the rudder? the race of the builder? all the above?

this beachtoy as you say is not some plastic resort product- it is used in all the same ways that the v1 is used for- competition and recreation. give yourself a nice pat on the back if it makes you feel better- you can feel like you are the gen-u-ine practictioner of
polynesian tradition.

i for one have greater appreciation of the v1 rudderless, esp seeing the capabilities of the tahitians... does that make me want to dump my oc1? hell no. i appreciate it for what it can do well.

you however have no reciprocating appreciation for the oc1 (your right) and seem to be intent on denigrating it at every opportunity to prove your genuineness, except your arguments are bullshit, and you may make a point of literalness, but make no sense in real life... you are like a fundamentalist religionist sticking to your literal zealous belief system...most people would say the differences are what they are, and move on, but you seem to want to try to convert everyone or make them admit that they're wrong.
everyone has heard your opinion about it (80 posts so it's been said 80 times already). we get it


#16 Tue, 10/21/2008 - 8:43am


Wakabones, i'm interested in what you have to say, as I'm very interested in ALL Polynesian culture, as are many others here, but your narrow point of view makes it difficult to take you seriously. All you're doing is turning people away from the current interest in your culture, instead of adding more value to it.

Lighten up mate, you don't have to push the cart so hard, it's counter productive to your cause.

Cheers Rambo


#17 Tue, 10/21/2008 - 12:06pm


OK Dacho, so you've swallowed the sales pitch that a boat shaped shell with no cockpit is a Hawaiian canoe, even though such a thing was known as a ski before the outrigger was attached. But you aggree that an OC is different to a va'a and wonder why I chimed in to this thread when the question was asked "does anyone know the story of why V1's have cockpits"?
It's just so damn simple -- Polynesian canoes have cockpits and hold water, surfskis dont. Polynesian canoes require hoe steering skill and OC's dont. If the "Hawaiian OC" mentioned in the heaps of print (here and in books too) is not a Polynesian type craft, then there is bulshit being spun.
That is my issue, along with the claim that a craft with no cockpit is supposed to be a better for open water.
Truth is that we have Polynesian type canoes here in Aotearoa NZ that are just as rough water capable as a sit on, Being able to go rudderless they are longer and of course heavier than the new breed sit-ons -- even if made using aerospace materials technology.
Paddling these canoes in all reasonable conditions shows a sit-on to be only marginally better, on one point only -- downwind.
Putting into perspective my 80 postings against the thousands of rave postings about downwind performance "superioriy", your rant is biased to say the least.
But then I suppose that there must be some kind of religious zeal behind the OC phenomenon.


#18 Tue, 10/21/2008 - 12:06pm


Spose you're right Rambo -- good idea to rather ignore the bullshit than knock it.


#19 Tue, 10/21/2008 - 12:43pm


wakabonez
you're the only one here making comparisons. i don't see any postings denigrating the v1... preferences for rudder vs. rudderless- that may be a matter of opinion and worth discussing, or upwind or downwind performance- all those issues are worthy of discussion. interest in the rudderless seems to rising- and that's great. there's is no "cult of the oc"... most of us enjoy the oc1- could it ever be replaced by the v1? who knows, maybe. are many people interested in trying?- plenty it seems.

and if people enjoy downwind runs, who cares? what is it to you? every surfer i know tries to ride waves in any vehicle we can get our hands on- i'll try to catch waves in a rubber ducky if i was on one....you're the only one who says surfing need only by done on a board. seems like if it was your choice, we'd be riding redwood planks- god forbid we ride american aerospace material surfboards with SKEGS!!! holy shit, what would the ancient hawaiians think about that? we're all heretics for trying to tuck in a pit without a redwood plank..

in fact in seems like you're the only one who tries to say what people should or should not surf or paddle, or what qualifies in your definition. why don't you start a website called vaapaddler.com- you can pontificate about the cocked and cockless all you want. i'll gladly be part of that community also.


#20 Tue, 10/21/2008 - 1:05pm


No wakabonez, definitely don't ignore it, we need balanced views to sort out the BS. The beauty of an open forum is the diverse range of knowledge that flows through it. Genuine facts may some times be posted incorrect or a view over opinionated, but sure as hell someone will step in and correct it or offer an alternate view.

I share what i learn or find, that is why i participate here and why Rambo's Locker exists, this forum is part of the filtering process.

Cheers Rambo


#21 Tue, 10/21/2008 - 1:07pm


John Wayne would be proud of you dacho..... both guns blazing like that.
I get this picture of you on an OC, wearing chaps and spurs... Yiiihaaaa! ! ! ride that bump


#22 Tue, 10/21/2008 - 3:17pm


The cockpit and sit on, both have their place in paddling and it comes down to personal choice.
I just want to say that If I had a choice of a Seahorse (sit on top) or a Surfrigger (cockpit) and I was paddling in rough New Zealand waters...
I personally would go for the Surfrigger as I could put a Kayak sprayskirt on and keep warm.... and keep excess water out of the cockpit.
I can also carry..stuff... in the cockpit and not have to anchor to the outside of the craft.
In rough stuff ....a knock on the lefthand side of the cockpit with my left knee can keep that ama from popping too high.

When I originally bought my craft from Moana Nui, I asked both Kris and Maui Kjeldson what I should purchase. Maui suggested that due to cool weather...it would probable be better to go Cockpit for the warmth factor.
I have been thankful for that info on those many cold nights when I have run low on energy and I am fighting the tide and wind.

Here in Aus I would go for a sit on because warmth is not a factor.
I am of Polynesian descent and I don't really care what you lable an Outrigger Canoe or if it has a rudder or not.
I just love paddling them and being in the company of those that also enjoy just that.
I have studied the history of the Outrigger Canoe and I am very interested in it's future.
I take on board lots of gems of info from this site so I am learning every day.

Sometimes a really stupid remark can hark up and makes those that have really good genuine info... share it with the rest of the paddling world. So I guess there is a place for all thoughts on this site.
Hmmm I wonder who I am gonna hark up :-)


#23 Tue, 10/21/2008 - 4:44pm


nah, i'm done pilgrim..

you enjoy your paddling, i enjoy my paddling, if we meet somewhere in the middle- great, and if not, then not...

besides rambo already said that chaps and crocodile dundee hats are the sole property of aussie lifeguards.


#24 Tue, 10/21/2008 - 5:26pm


Talking about Surfriggers and Seahorses, history and future of outrigger
etc. - what is interesting is that the Seahorse actually had no holes in the
bottom, so that it was ostensibly a waka even though it had no cockpit. This
trend has resulted in some interesting developments in Aotearoa NZ, and has
helped to create some effective solutions, like add on cockpit lips with
sprayskirts (to sit-ons with no holes in the bottom) and cockpits with
foot-bailer systems.

Maui's suggestion (to you, ocpaddler) that the cockpit version Surfrigger
would be a better option, is interesting because of the changes that have
taken place. The people and conditions haven't changed, but the trends
certainly have. Maui may nowadays be suggesting to opt for a wanui, which
would mean that another canoe is needed for rudderless. Not sure if he'd be
suggesting a Surfrigger for this, because there are more competitive
rudderless options now. But it means that 2 different types of craft are
required to stay competitive, or else to neglect one or other discipline.

On the note of the two disciplines; first four places in the recent NZ long
distance Nationals saw 2 sit-ons marginally ahead of 2 waka, one which was
rudderless (and not a Surfrigger).

Looking at the strength of the paddlers, the rudderless guy is the best we
have and in a class of his own, but for the other three, the following test
would determine their ability - take the rudders off and do a 500 M time
trial after the distance event, then get the aggregate placing of the two
finishes.

In such case the ability of the canoes would show, because the waka that
finished third would smoke the hurricane and Pegasus with no rudders.


#25 Wed, 10/22/2008 - 10:50am


Rambo, you mention it's wakabonez's culture. I don't think so, He's South African.


#26 Wed, 10/22/2008 - 9:28pm


fred: you guess that you know me.... well, by the sound of your name you could be that downwind paddler from Liverpool........ downwind from Chelsea


#27 Thu, 10/23/2008 - 6:56pm


I think goodwaka is a real waka.


#28 Thu, 10/23/2008 - 7:18pm


Wakabonez, You have the same rants and raves on your website, trying to convert the uneducated to your narrow point of view. after reading your website i decided you have psych issues.


#29 Thu, 10/23/2008 - 8:53pm


For anyone interested.

http://www.southernoutriggers.com/


#30 Thu, 10/23/2008 - 9:05pm


fred the psychologist with 3 posts in 2 years..... and talking about issues, if you are so sure that I am one and the same person as 'southernoutriggers' who might you be


#31 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 12:20am


fred: whether I am South African, Nigerian, Polynesian or whatever is beside the point. Unless your intention is to create a racial issue on this outrigger forum.


#32 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 12:26am


That video kicks ass! Great job! Makes me want to paddle rudderless, although I should wait until I can afford it...


#33 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 6:56am


goodwaka... badwaka ??


#34 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 7:55am


Wakabonez, I have been a member for a couple years now. I usually just check results and Pic's and for a bit of entertainment, i read what people have to say, but i couldn't stand it any longer. "who am i", maybe i'm a downwinder, maybe i'm a rudderless v1 paddler, maybe i'm both. But this is about you right now.
You have been living amongst the culture and building canoes for what, 5-6 years? You write post's, and try to make it appear as if you have grown up in the polynesian culture, are an expert on island traditions and what constitutes a real waka. You've been trying to fool people for too long now and i'm sick of your bullshit.
Maybe you should open your mind and enjoy every aspect of our wonderful sport, and stop the bashing.If you cannot maybe you should get help.


#35 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 1:59pm


Is it Wakabonez or Goodwaka? Either way, pretending you're Polynesian is FUN!!!


#36 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 2:16pm


Fred, so you are a nameless individual who's peeved because he has got the
wrong end of the stick. Who knows where you get this BS about me pretending
to be of Polynesian stock and building canoes for 5-6 years.

So here are the facts: For more than 30 years I have had an intensely
passionate interest in Polynesian type outrigger canoes, been building
designing building paddling and sailing them for most of that time.

A sit-on oc is little different to the wave skis that invaded surf breaks in
the 70's, in it's commercially driven, hype loaded popularity. Pointing this
out sure does get people who are selling them pissed.. sounds as if you are
one of them.

You are for sure not a Polynesian with Tahitian affiliation.


#37 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 5:29pm


Interesting quote here from the winner of the very first Molokai solo - " we feel wer'e more seaworthy than either canoes or escorts because we have closed decks"

I have never actually made any pretence at having Polynesian blood, only paid tribute to the ancestry of their canoes. But the people who are making these crazy accusations have no problem with pretending that a surfski is a Hawaiian canoe.


#38 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 5:42pm


Wow, just read through that WHOLE thread! That was some good stuff. Ocpaddler hall of fame material? We have some serious heavyweight wordsmiths up in here, Yo! Oh the humanity! OK-I get it Waka-we're fags for liking oc1s. Point taken. My bad-no one has a "real" va'a for me to borrow! I finally figured out what you've been trying to tell us, and I have to tell you, I won't feel nearly as cool, authentic, or manly when I get on that fricken' haole surfski w/ an outrigger thang tomorrow morning. Is the Chelsea to Liverpool run any good?


#39 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 6:16pm


All this stuff about 'pretence' is surely enough to get the point home -- the sit-on oc belongs in a class of it's own, it is maybe a cousin of the va'a, is no more Polynesian than I am.

No slight on the people who paddle them, no slight on the people in Hawaii who build them in Hawaii for use in local waters. But why this pretence about a pop-out factory product (from the USA China or wherever) being a "Hawaiian canoe"


#40 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 7:23pm


The wrong end of what stick? I never said anything about polynesian blood. I was only trying to point out to the rest of the OC paddler family that the country you come from couldn't be any further from polynesia, and has only recently(in the past ten years) had any racing Outrigger canoes, Va'a, Waka, Wa'a, what ever you call it. And how can someone who has lived in a polynesian country 5-6 years, claim to be such an expert on it's culture.
Anyway i'm out for another couple years, i've had my say. I know i can't get anything through a stubborn thick skull.


#41 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 7:38pm


Goodwaka , there is no point in what you're trying to get home.
No body is denying that the OC1is a modern mass produced hybrid of the traditional wa'a va'a waka and the surf ski.
It has no direct lineage to anything other than a factory
So what?
As a craft they are collectively capable of allowing" relatively" inexperienced paddlers to experience the inherent thrill and beauty of our oceans, that is why they are becoming so popular.
I have read your blog and it is noble what you are trying to achieve but if we read between the lines it is evident that you are getting out sold / marketed by the mass produced OC1, well fella sadly once your passion becomes your business you are at the mercy of the MARKET which is a cruel bitch.
I tried to make a living building solid timber furniture but could'nt compete with the mass produced lines.So I had to adapt or starve,
You are sounding like a fundamentalist religious zealot , trying to make everyone thing the same way you do and despising them if they don't.
Lifes too short mate, get over it and move on


#42 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 8:04pm


sorry to jump back into this.. just one last comment

when the native americans rode horses (all descended from escaped or stolen spanish horses), what made them "apache" horses or "comanche" horses was the simple fact that they were ridden by apaches and comanches.. the horses were not called "horses of spanish origin, not authenic native american"

what makes the "surfski with an outrigger" a "hawaiian" canoe is the simple fact that the hawaiians (along with the rest of us) paddle them and claim it as their own.. simple as that... trace the geneology all you want, but that's all you need... of course that could change, which is fine... there's no need to make it more complicated than that.

when the hawaiians get offended at calling the oc1 a "hawaiian" canoe, then i'm sure everyone will be glad to comply..


#43 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 8:31pm


fred: your'e losing it, maybe you need some psychiatric help.
Getting so rattled about what I say about an innanimate object is as bad as what you accuse me of......... maybe we both need help.

If you aren't really fred, but start believing that you are fred, then the writing is on the wall.
At least I know that I'm not really 'wakabonez or goodwaka'

Jim must be OK because that's who he really is. But Rambo ??........... maybe he needs help too.


#44 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 8:42pm


wow, a tiny glimmer of humor... there's hope for you yet waka


#45 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 9:10pm


Waka,
The reason Tahitian canoes are the way they are is because that is the way their canoes have evolved, and a substantial market in canoe building has grown to support this. Traditional my @rse! There is nothing traditional about them - mechanical foot bailers(?!!), carbon fibre hulls (reportedly weighing as little as 7kgs), vacuum-bagging technology, epoxy resins, aluminum iakos, etc etc the list goes on - about the only thing you could say is that they don't have a rudder - and as we know, that does make quite a big difference to the control of the canoe. But spare me the b.s about traditional this or that as some sort of justification... modern outrigger canoeing stemmed from the good old fishing outrigger canoe, but the modern style outrigger canoe was actually developed in .... Hawaii!! Not Tahiti.
The market for single man canoes in Tahiti is for the rudderless Va'a. There is a huge business in it, so why would they suddenly abandon the entire thing for a different style of canoe? Does not make good business sense at all, and I think that is a major reason behind it, and then later justified with a whole lot of gobbledegook about 'purity', and 'tradition' and blah blah blah etc. The same kind of reasoning is behind the 400lb limitation on Hawaiian OC6 canoes - and now they're stuck because everyone is building them at this weight. Lowering the weight restriction at this stage would mean a whole bunch of redundant canoes on the beach.
Outrigger canoeing is simply that - a canoe (however you want to define that) with an outrigger attached to it. And that, my friend is the only 'traditional' thing about it.
That however should not to be confused with the important (I would say most important aspect), its cultural significance to the Polynesian people. It is a modern sport developed by these people, with important linkages to the past, and using the vehicle most dearest to their hearts - the vaka/waka/va'a.
Lets leave it at that, and stop arguing about which is better, or more legitimate or whatever.
For the record, I like both the OC1 and V1 though.


#46 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 10:24pm


Oh and by the way did you know Georges Cronsteadt has an OC1, which he paddles... get this... for fun!!!!


#47 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 10:26pm


Not too many people don't know who i really am, my name and photo is plastered all over Rambo's Locker. Rambo is a vehicle Wakabonez, a brand if you like that i use to disseminate info for free and help promote outrigger canoeing. You can't buy anything on my site it 's all free to take if you want it. Do i need help ? Yep, spend too much time being Rambo and not enough time making a buck. But i wouldn't have it any other way.

You have some interesting info to share Wakabonez, but your method of delivery let's you down. Lighten up and let's see what you got. I ain't perfect, but i try to give not clout.

Cheers Rambo


#48 Fri, 10/24/2008 - 10:33pm


This touches a bit on what dacho and coconut said...

I'm not sure if goodwaka understands the irony of his situation. If he has no polynesian or any other Pacific Islander ancestry (cultural or racial) he is in no better position to say what a traditional waka is than HCRA was to declare something a Hawai'ian wa'a in the 1970s... and I think we all know how that discussion went.

The beauty of culture is it continually evolves and is defined by those people sharing it. goodwaka has every right to talk about what makes a good outrigger canoe as someone who paddles them, but no right to decide what is traditional for a culture he does not belong to.

Of course, if he's been adopted into that culture (adopted, not assumed membership for himself) he might have a leg to stand on. Still doesn't mean he's very good at communicating.


#49 Sat, 10/25/2008 - 2:45am


Underlying this discussion is the conclusion, a al "The Highlander," that in the end there can be only one. It will be interesting to see if personal outriggering splits in two, or the market choses one or the other. Cross-country skiing has done this, there is traditional cross country skiing and "skating." Each division has its own styles and technologies. Most meets provide for both styles.

At the price of US$3,400 for an OC-1, "in the end there can be only one" may very well be true for most people.

All other things being equal (length is an important moving and storage consideration), the OC-1 has the edge in speed and folks like to be in the faster divisions. And there are races that have no divisions. If you have a rudder all your paddling energy goes toward moving you forward. If you don't have a rudder, some of your strokes have to go toward course adjustment and adjustments also break your rhythm.

I see the V-1 as more generally seaworthy. Around here it sells for the same price or greater than the OC-1. I suspect it is cheaper to build (no rudder, no cables, option of fiberglass rather than carbon fiber). Locally manufactured and successfully marketed it would cost significantly less.

I'm hoping both will survive. It may be because the OC-1 market becomes saturated and overall the industry decides to promote V-1s, as well as OC-1s, to broaden its base. It will first however try to sell the high end products.

My wife has told me I cannot have anymore boats than there are days of the week. This summer, in order to buy an 8th boat, I had to sell a dory.

Only later did I here that the Egyptians had a 9 day week at one time. Alas, it is too late to apply for Egyptian citizenship.

I may revisit all this when someone start marketing V-1s on the East Coast at a price lower than OC-1s.
~~~~~~~~~~
YankeeHo'okele
"Anyone can steer the ship when the sea is calm" - Syrus Publilius


#50 Sat, 10/25/2008 - 4:13am


Since we're on the subject of lineage, I'd like to point out that the first oc1 built in Hawaii by Walter Guild was based on a Tahitian design. I think if you took an oc1 back to ancient Hawai'i the Hawaiians would probably classify it as some type of Wa'a, wouldn't they? I like Anowara's definition of culture, and I believe most anthropologists would agree w/ him.


#51 Sat, 10/25/2008 - 4:14am


I always heard that Kayaks came from the Inuits so do the surf skis?
in a thousand years we will be the ancients and they will talk of how we did have different skin colors and cultures. and how we shared things like Christmas Spaghetti and yo-yo's. No matter where they came from. for some day we will all be beige

The beauty of culture is it continually evolves and is defined by those people sharing it.

that is deep and could not have been said any better. Solid Anowara.

I need help! I collect every type of canoe I can find I recently got a v10 sport.
I am very great-full for the hospitality and the sharing from the polynesian culture and racing communities.
Also I love your site Rambo.


#52 Sat, 10/25/2008 - 7:42am


i agree with you Mulus, RAMBOS LOCKER is a great thing, and its not done by itself, he puts a lot of time and work......i spent 10 month transition when i moved back form Hawaii to Argentina, and until the canoe was in the water i survived watching rambos videos.......................isnt that cultural?


#53 Sat, 10/25/2008 - 9:37am


Very cultural indeed.
Wikipedia says: "Culture (from the Latin cultura stemming from colere, meaning "to cultivate")[1] generally refers to patterns of human activity and the symbolic structures that give such activities significance and importance. Cultures can be "understood as systems of symbols and meanings that even their creators contest, that lack fixed boundaries, that are constantly in flux, and that interact and compete with one another"[2]"

In the culture of OC-1 the human activity is paddling. Rambo's blog, Eckarts and of course ocpaddler.com would be the symbolic structures that give our activity significance and importance.
Thanks Al Gore for inventing the internet (lol)


#54 Sat, 10/25/2008 - 10:21am


Hey Rambo, I was only trying to lighten up. No offense meant by my "Rambo" coment -- dacho picked up on the attempted humour, as intended

'Wakabonez' was originally used as a tag I used when writing stuff for a local paddling magazine


#55 Sat, 10/25/2008 - 5:41pm


Kevlon: what you say makes sense, until you suggest moving on.

I have no interest in moving on from a canoe which has the following
attributes -- is sleek and easily driven by nature of the fact that it has
such a high length to beam ratio that an outrigger is needed for stability,
has good directional stability along with hand held foil as it's only
steering aid.

I'll stick with Tahitian type va'a or waka as it is called here.

I'm am maybe never going to be the quickest paddler moving from point A to
B, but swimming that blade is something that I will always enjoy.

You have insight into what is going on here so I'll level with you - yes the
'blog' as you call it is mine, and there are no doubt better ways at making
money than working nearly 12 hours a day for 7 days a week for meagre pay.
If I've got to believe what the other guys like 'coconut' are saying, then I
may as well chuck it in and get some time on the water.

In answer to the criticism about my apparently misguided ideas about lineage
of Polynesian canoes and validity of sit-ons, I'll have to repeat what I
said early in this thread - when the Tahitians begin paddling fully decked
6mans with holes in the bottom etc.etc........ then only will I accept that
a sit-on is a va'a.

Jim: good point about taking a sit-on back to ancient Hawaii and asking them
to classify it. But you may as well take them a double blade and a Fenn or
Epic ski at the same time and show them that it goes quicker without the
ama, weighs less, costs less etc. If they are gonna say that the ski doesn'
t qualify because it has no outrigger, they may just say that they prefer a
cockpit too..... which kind of brings us back to the beginning of this
thread. Walter Guild's craft must have had a cockpit if it was based on a
Tahitian design.


#56 Sat, 10/25/2008 - 5:43pm


The Walter Guild boat did not have a cockpit and it was based on a Tahitian design, at least in terms of the hull shape. Do really deep footwells count as an open cockpit if they don't have holes in them?


#57 Sat, 10/25/2008 - 6:52pm


Goodwaka,
Sorry if you misunderstood me,
By suggesting "moving on" I didnt mean to abandon or leave behind what you were doing, on the contrary (what this world needs now more than ever is minds full of their own thoughts and ideas and not somebody else's ) I meant dont worry what other other people might paddle think or say, that is their perogative so dont waste your energy preaching, Show us dont tell us
And as my granny used to say "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar"


#58 Sat, 10/25/2008 - 7:10pm


You lightening up, is good news wakabonez, your humor is accepted and my guard is down, we can move on.

I have a picture of Walters earliest craft which i will post.

After evaluating a Tahitian Lagoon Va'a in Hawai'i waters, Walter figured he needed to make the following changes;

  1. Shorten the length to 21 - 23 ft
  2. Include a rudder.
  3. Make it sit on so it would not hold water.

These changes he deduced, would encourage more paddlers to take up the sport and in his own words" allow the new design to have superior handling in all but the smoothest of conditions."

Mean while about the same time , Tommy Connors had a design that had a recessed seat, like that of a surf ski, but it didn't suit the single blade stroke as it placed the paddler in a bio -mechanically inferior position.

From all this it is plain to see that the Hawaiian one man canoe is a fairly recent development and did not evolve from the Six man canoe, in fact it was most likely a commercial decision rather than a cultural one, based on the premise of growing the sport.

The Va'a and the Hawaiian OC1 are like chalk and cheese but they share a lot of similarities and for this reason should not be compared to each another.

Paddle both, enjoy both for what they are.

Cheers Rambo


#59 Sat, 10/25/2008 - 7:24pm


In Tahiti, OC1s are legal in V1s races if you paddle them... ... ... rudderless. ;-)
OC1s with rudders are legals in surfskis races.

So one could say we (tahitians) consider OC1s as surfskis...

Please, don't smash me.


#60 Sat, 10/25/2008 - 8:04pm


...caught you out, because they have no rudder you put them in V1 , i thought it was the cockpit that made the distinction?? ... hahaha.

No smashing today Hiro

Rambo


#61 Sat, 10/25/2008 - 8:15pm


Hey wakabonez, do you have any closer pictures of the Kiato to Va'a attachment on your canoes, it looks unique.

Rambo


#62 Sat, 10/25/2008 - 8:27pm


Rambo, pic here of the kiato lashing


#63 Sun, 10/26/2008 - 3:58am


Did Walter Guild’s boat have a cockpit and “Do really deep footwells count as an open cockpit if they don’t have holes in them?”

My answer is based on traditional boat-building concepts, which I took too many words explaining in the blog. Simply put, if it holds water as well as displaces water then it assimilates a dugout. So it sounds as if the original Guild boat was technically a va’a.
Tradition is often derided when it comes to justifying sit-on logic, but there are practical reasons for keeping decks separate from the cockpit floor where construction is concerned. Including bulkheads and other internal stiffening components is a good reason.


#64 Sun, 10/26/2008 - 4:00am


Actually Rambo, that first Walter Guild boat was 27 ft. long, just like Karel's 1st boat. You may be thinking of the Kaiwi Challenger, Walter's 2nd model.


#65 Sun, 10/26/2008 - 4:05am


“The beauty of culture is it continually evolves and is defined by those people sharing it. goodwaka has every right to talk about what makes a good outrigger canoe as someone who paddles them, but no right to decide what is traditional for a culture he does not belong to.”

So, if goodwaka is active within a culture it makes no sense that he does not belong to it.
Talking of course about contemporary canoe culture here in Polynesia – Polynesia as defined by a geographical locality encompasing the triangular area between Aotearoa NZ, Tahiti and Hawaii.
Tying the culture and tradition argument up with the fact that Walter Guild is not of Native Hawaiian stock but that his boat is a Hawaiian canoe because it was developed for the local waters, is also puzzling.
This puzzle can be swept away by accepting that culture is continually evolving and that tradition is bollocks, that market trends in boat supply rule. But if evolving culture is related to boatbuilding tradition then a different picture emerges. Then looking to Tahiti makes sense.


#66 Sun, 10/26/2008 - 4:52am


the development of the first oc1 in hawaii by walter guild, or the development of a waka by wakabonez is not really the issue. no one (at least i don't) disputes that you are participating in the culture, or your right to build or have opinions about those boats. it could very well be that you and walter share that experience in different parts of polynesia (walter being from hawaii, you being from where ever, but both not of polynesian blood but both advancing paddling culture).

where goodwaka's comments start rubbing the wrong way is the declarations about what defines the "hawaiian" canoe. you have no standing whatsoever to define that unless you have magically reached some sort of consensus with the hawaiian people, so that you can define their culture. you have every right to make the point that the oc1 is different than a traditional va'a, but not to say it is not a "hawaiian" canoe, since you don't make that definition. since no one else is making declarations about what is a "hawaiian" canoe, or even to say that the oc1 is the true descendent of a traditional va'a. but the fact that it is being used actively in hawaii and becoming integrated in the paddling culture of hawaii, by definition means that it is becoming a hawaiian canoe.. and of course it can change...

anowara nailed it- "The beauty of culture is it continually evolves and is defined by those people sharing it"...that's why there is the dispute of the 400 lb weight limit for 6mans, and why a rule was put in place at an arbitrary point in time freezing any cultural development, as if culture only happens in the past and not the present- but that is understandable in a place where so much of the culture was suppressed (as in hawaii), but not so much an issue in a place like tahiti where the culture was not suppressed.

Discussion of hull designs, and cockpits, and rudders, and materials- these all can be discussion points that an active culture will try to resolve, so why try to freeze them in time? let the discussions happen. That's why when goodwaka steps in and says the discussion cannot happen because it is already resolved- it is offensive because who made that determination?

tahiti is a great example of a polynesian society where paddling is still an integral part of the culture (in hawaii, it's the state sport, but really still a subculture) so using them as an example is good, but doesn't necessarily mean that the oc1 is invalid because it is different than the tahitian model.

if the oc1 and v1 stay distinct, then so be it. they are both being actively used, and doesn't diminish the roles they both serve in each culture. it may be that the paddling cultures will slowly reintegrate into a overall contemporary polynesian paddling culture, but not necessarily so.

the main thing is that we are participants in this sport, and members or guests of the culture. be respectful. (you can see how the tone of this thread changes when one goes from trying to force their opinion and changes to voice their opinion)


#67 Sun, 10/26/2008 - 9:21am


i'll make a suggestion here that worked for me. instead of reading this thread to obtain the headache which follows, just smack yourself in the temples with a ball peen hammer. just as effective, less time wasted.

it is apparent goodwaka/wakabones will not or cannot accept another point of view, no matter how it is explained.

for the record, i've paddled v-1 and oc-1, and i suck at both.

but i do have a ball peen hammer if anyone needs it.


#68 Sun, 10/26/2008 - 9:54am


Yes, Jc90, it appears deep thinkers have invaded these posts. It is truly painful for the simple like myself. I dream of the days when we had simple posts like-

"Your boat sucks"

"You suck"

"Lets fight"

or

"you are a bad rep for canoes"

"you are a piece of :#$#%"

"I didn't mean to post that. I love everyone. Out!"

We need Goto or PooPooPaddler to just weigh in with one sentence answer, so we know what to do and who to bash.


#69 Sun, 10/26/2008 - 10:02am


That's right Jim, i kind of fast forwarded to where Walter started to think about changes that he needed to make rather than dwell on the 1st one which was a modified Tahitian Va'a decked behind and in front of the iakos but open decked in between them. This huge undecked area ( about 7 ft long) obviously quickly filled with water and is what convinced Walter to fully enclose the hull.

Still looking for that photo, i have it some where.

Rambo


#70 Sun, 10/26/2008 - 10:27am


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