Fair Race Fees

Seems fair to me. Try to do it yourself and find out.

#2 Sun, 11/16/2008 - 7:36pm

I`d like to make a comment on this thread because Im very involved in this subject in real life , not just as a cyber personality here on OCP. First I will need a definition of the word "fair" because it means different things to different people.

For example , if your race is a fund raiser , is it "fair " to undercharge racers ? The cause you are raising funds for could be undermined.

Is it " fair " if the race organiser loses money promoting racing?

I think most racers think its unfair to spend a lot of money on a race entry fee and then not get much back in return.

In my most humble opinion race fees should reflect the purpose of the race. For fund raiser races , paddlers should expect to pay a little more to race. Dittos for races where there is prize money .
For a local , unsponsored , non championship type race , paddlers should expect to pay enough so that the race director doesnt lose money. Races that lose money dont last , these are the ones that disappear from the racing schedule. Racers need to ask themselves : Do we want to support " training " races or do we need a major awards ceremony , huge prizes including cash , t shirts , lunch , band , beer ,,,,, you know what im saying ,,, everytime we go out to race.

Speaking for myself , I could do without all the expensive add ons when I go racing . The race its self is reward enough .

Bottom line is this:
If you like to race canoes , support your race directors and don`t complain about the fees . If fee is too high for you , then dont race . The director will get the message.

" All Truth All the Time"

Fuzerider

#4 Mon, 11/17/2008 - 2:13am

I think you forgot the cost of the 3 escort/ safety boats. The time and use of someones boat is expensive so I would guess that would take $1,500-$2,000 off the bottom line "profit" margin for the 3 safety boats. Really, if you wonder about it...help organize or organize a race and learn how truely thankless and unprofitable it is.

#6 Mon, 11/17/2008 - 5:31am

i don't see how you could charge any LESS than $25 and make it worthwhile to put on... shirts, food, escort boats, insurance, permits... why do volunteers give their time for free while racers get to complain about fees? too expensive?- don't race.. doing the run on your own is free anytime.

#8 Mon, 11/17/2008 - 7:39am

This question comes up every year at the start of OC-1 season. As a previous race organizer I can tell you first-hand that insurance is the real killer. Most people way underestimate the cost of event insurance. Of your entry fee a minimum of $10/head goes to insurance. Fuel prices are driving up the cost of the escort boats, which are there for YOUR SAFETY. The larger the field, the more safety vessels are necessary. It reqires equipment to run these races... paddlers want accurate and timely results, which means someone has to pop for a laptop, which is going to be destroyed by the sand, salt, and wind, as well as a printer that can be mobile (and the paper and toner for the printer), and it will also be destroyed by the elements. The timers we use are not cheap either, and we have to have two of them so we can track results for the short and long courses. Then comes lunch and beverages. Then comes race shirts or jerseys. Mileage for volunteers to get from that start line(s) to the finish lines (it shouldn't cost them money to put on our races). The list goes on and on. Some people seem to think these races are easy to organize, easy to run and simple to do. For those who think that, I encourage you to get on the board of your local race organization and see what it takes first hand. Then, if you still feel it's too expensive, solicit sponsors on your own to reduce the cost for everyone. Get off your okole and do something about it. Otherwise, pony up the $20-$25, show up and enjoy the race, and quit complaining.

#10 Mon, 11/17/2008 - 8:22am

Dmehling sum's it up quite nicely. Next thread please.

#12 Mon, 11/17/2008 - 8:38am

This is a great topic and one that can take a lot of different views, I would ask yourself one question, was it worth it? regardless of the price, If you feel you got your moneys worth it doesn't matter if it was 15 or 150 dollars.

My experience is that OC paddling events are very cheap for what you generally get for the money. This in my opinion is a fault. You get what you pay for. at 25 dollars you got a lunch (8.00 no tip), T-shirt (18.00 no tax), someone to watch over you on a paddle in case of emergency (priceless), and probably some entertainment.

Having run the Catalina Challenge for the past 4 years I can tell you at this time nobody is making a lot of money running events. Sponsors are tough to get and most will not give cash, Here is a rough idea of what we spend on the Catalina Race
Entry Fee 65.00 per paddler
Food at Henneseys 12.50 per person
Jersey 15.00
Insurance 800.00
Escort boat 500.00
Deanza cove boat storage 250.00
Printing cost 30.00
travel expenses for race officials/help 150.00
overnight accommodations for officials 300.00
Orange county permits 300.00
Race numbers / stickers 5.00 each 750.00
awards 500.00

That is roughly 8017 in cost, Not including travel fees, parking, food on island for officials ect.
Last year we had roughly 125 paddlers or 8125.00 in collected race fees. If I had to guess how many hours I spend getting all the permits, insurance, escorts for those not able to get there own, etc., I would say I put in 80 hours.

Here is why I do it, Of course promotion of Ocean Ohana. But it is also to promote the sport, the paddlers and because of the sense of accomplishment and recognition. Each year we get bigger. My goal is that someday the Catalina Challenge is as highly regarded as the Molokai or Kauai relay's. We typically don't have bumps but that suits a different paddler. Danny Ching and Steve Sinkus are untouched in these conditions for three years in a row, There is something to be said about a paddler that can excel without bumps to push him, That is not to take away from the great surfers, The same can be said of the paddlers that can find runs where others can't. The ultimate paddler is the one that can do both. I will put it here right now, I will award 1000.00 to any team that can win all three big races, Molokai, Kauai, and Catalina. I know it's not much but I hope it is a start.

Sorry I got a little off track. Great races need support, and they cost money. If you want to race for little or no money, I would suggest organizing fun "get together's" No official's beers for the winners and losers, and just fun. If you want a little more control and organization expect to pay, Now if you want to get prize money then expect to pay more and expect the race to take on a new look with corporate sponsors.

#14 Mon, 11/17/2008 - 9:14am

I think its fair - Your paddling right!

Basically you have a choice to race officially or as a renegade. If you feel its too much don't submit your entry! If you feel that you would like a better understanding on how much it cost to organize a race - volunteer!!! I am sure any organizer would love your help. You would also get your questions answered by the organizer themselves.

#16 Mon, 11/17/2008 - 12:58pm

To sum it up, if you don't want to pay you don't have to race.

#18 Mon, 11/17/2008 - 1:33pm

Great thread and also one that comes up here on Guam occassionally; what is 'fair'? Having put on many, many OC1 races here, anything that keeps us in the black (barely) is OK, we even run some races at $5.00 or free for U19 and Juniors just to help grow the sport
The one point I would overwhelmingly agree with is that bandit paddlers are scum. I know all the arguments (the ocean is free...yada, yada); but someone who just happens to show up and paddle the same course at the same time as our race, mooching off our time and effort, our safety boats and so on is despicable. I wouldn't go so far as not to help if they were in trouble (my karma takes enough hits anyway) but boy, would it be tempting...

#20 Mon, 11/17/2008 - 4:31pm

I think its personal opinion if a race was worth it or not.

I gotta ask this though, where else can you buy a shirt, lunch, and a good paddle for 25 bucks? Just the lunch and shirt is almost worth the $25.

Thanks paddlelikeagirl. I was inquiring about how much it costs to organize a race outside of HCRA. Like a one man race or fundraiser race.

#22 Mon, 11/17/2008 - 9:01pm

In Tahiti, to run a race, you need as a race director, to ask to the government an authorisation to use the water for that purpose, specifying date, hour and race course. You are then responsible for the security of anyone on that water at this date, place and time. Thus, you have the right to get anybody out of the water. So long for "renegades"...
I don't call them renegades, they are parasites... taking what's good from the community and not giving in return.

I wouldn’t go so far as not to help if they were in trouble (my karma takes enough hits anyway) but boy, would it be tempting…

Maybe you could charge them for "rescue fees", and of course, those could be much more expensive than race registration... ;-)

#24 Mon, 11/17/2008 - 10:22pm

My favourite parasite was at a small boat race here in Canada. A guy on a surfski (I'm not picking on surfskis - he just happened to be on one) decides he's going to do the race with everyone, but not register in case he doesn't feel like doing the whole thing. I asked nicely if he'd pay ($10), to help cover costs, insurance, safety boats, fuel, etc. "I'm good. I'l be fine out there. No worries."

He capsizes at the start. As safety boat guy, I take note that he's okay, but I leave him alone 'cause he's near the shore. He capsizes again, less than 5 minutes into the race. I, too, am trying to top up my karma account, so I go over to him. While he's treading water, I explain, again, that now I'm wasting my time on somebody that hasn't paid to help with the costs. I point out the crowd of racers way ahead of us, and how I'm not really there for them anymore. "Yeah, no, I'm good. It'll be fine. Now bring your boat over and help me get back on!"

He just didn't get it.

I ask our volunteers to keep track of how much time they put in organizing our club's races. Then I divide the profit made for our club, and it usually turns out we could have made much more with a minimum wage job for the same number of hours.

#26 Tue, 11/18/2008 - 8:07am

don, for the record all of us at fcrcc appreciate, your efforts in penticton. we condider ourselves lucky if we break even with our downwind run in july. we keep the race going because we believe that if we get the winds we should in july, it will be a memerable race.
three years ago at the gorge our skirt zippers gave up and we filled with water, hulied and righted to try and get rid of the water, no luck. thankfully jd and support boat people came to the rescue and pulled six tired paddlers and canoe back to the dock. that 25 dollar entry fee was the best money i ever spent.

#28 Tue, 11/18/2008 - 10:51am

When considering if race fees are worth it I think it's helpful to evaluate not only the true costs and time associated with organizing an event (including volunteer time) but the alternatives for how you might otherwise spend your hard-earned cash.

To me, I'd way rather be on the water with my friends and community for a few hours than other similarly priced alternatives:
- coupla beers at a bar
- dinner
- buying a new tshirt
- movie with a date or friend

Going out for a training run with friends can be equally fun, but it's great to be able to measure yourself up from time to time.

Thank you to all the race organizers and volunteers, you guys are amazing and get some serious karma points. (Especially shout out to Debbie Green for Nor Cal races if she's on the forum! Don't know how you do it all.)

V

#30 Tue, 11/18/2008 - 5:19pm

Bet you run a race right with enough safety boats and good awards//not monkeypod bowls// the entry fees wouldnt even cover the cost to put on the race unless you have sponsors kicking in money or food or shirts. No race if you no like pay plain and simple.

#32 Wed, 11/19/2008 - 10:15pm