i was thinking the other day about how some people use really big paddles, (width wise) and how some people use even smaller paddles, but do just as well and even better. it seems to me that good paddles need to grab alot of water, without cavitation, but at the same time get deep in the water to grab the denser water.
i was also thinking about what if you had a paddle with a 180sq. inch blade, and someone else had lets say a 110sq. inch paddle, so it seems that the person with the bigger paddle would of course move more water, but if the person with the smaller paddle could take two strokes for every one of the bigger paddle, would it even matter, i guess strength is the variable that is not added, but whats your guys opinion?
Submitted by tyler hale on Sun, 12/21/2008 - 8:49pm
Depends on what conditions you paddle in, too. In surf, lots of people like a smaller blade. In the flats, a bigger blade.
#1 Sun, 12/21/2008 - 8:59pm
Tyler the bigger blade is better. You can prove that with physics - in theory.
In practice:
Figure you want to move a pile of sand, large shovel or small shovel ?
#2 Sun, 12/21/2008 - 9:15pm
Its that simple ha? For how long is the bigger blade better? For what length of race? If you're in a 1/2 mile or mile sprint, the bigger is better, but then of course shape is important. How does the blade enter and release the water? The cleaner the blade enters and releases, the more efficient it is. For endurance one man races, smaller is better. Try using a 11 inch wide blade in a 4 hr race. Good luck to you're joints, shoulders and back. Tyler, you will need at least two paddles, a bigger one for shorter distance paddling and a smaller one for longer distance. Demo different paddle shapes and go for whats comfortable and efficient in and out of the water.
#3 Sun, 12/21/2008 - 9:40pm
Seafarer - Tyler asks what is more efficient: to increase the mass of water moved or to increase the velocity to move the water.
The answer to that is simple: increasing the mass is more energy efficient.
In practice I believe to shovel a pile of sand to be a good equivalent.
How big is the pile of sand, how fast do you have to move it, is it wet or is it dry, fine or coarse, how do you feel that day etc. - it all depends, as you point out. But that was not what Tyler asked about.
#4 Sun, 12/21/2008 - 10:28pm
There you go Tyler, read all about it, especially the part about Danny Ching using different size paddles within a race.
http://rambos-locker.blogspot.com/search/label/paddles
Cheers Rambo
#5 Sun, 12/21/2008 - 10:27pm
Are we missing the most basic point of the whole exercise, to pull the canoe past the blade, not shift the water, therefor doesn't it stand to reason you only need a blade that is big enough to plant in the water and pull past, anything larger might just be a wasted effort. Might have something to do with body mass and power (power to weight ratio) to determine what size paddle that might be, getting a head ache thinking about it. Rambo, you better get Leo on here and give us a physics lesson.
#6 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 12:08am
I don't think it is about moving water... more about anchoring the blade and pulling the boat through the water....and if you can anchor well with a smaller blade then that is less weight to carry.
That is interesting that Danny Ching uses a different blade for different stages of the race.
I reckon (but do not know for sure) that most top paddlers would use the same blade for all races.
I do not see the need to change paddle size. Master the paddle you have and adjust the stroke to fit the situation.
Big paddle blade... big ego
#7 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 12:15am
ocpaddler, I have used multiple sized blades and paddle lengths. Paddling sprints with my daughter she used a 8" and I used a 9 1/4" which blended well she was able to keep the same stroke.
I had a bad day on the Murray Marathon one year and about the 65km mark of a 92km day I pulled out the 8" spare for myself because I was shot paddling into a howling headwind. It got me home on the OC1.
On the other hand I had a 9 3/4" which gave me elbow and shoulder pain and was clearly too big for me.
All ZRE power surge.
#8 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 1:37am
i like the shovel analogy, here is my take, A lager shovel can move the sand in large amounts but for how long? Smaller scoops and go all day,
I think you must look at body type and conditioning as a major component for the blade style, I myself have relatively weak muscles in a brute force sense, But can get the stroke rate way up and maintain for a long time, For the guys that follow bike racing think of Jan Ulrick and Lance Armstrong, Jan was a big guy that cranked big gears, Lance was a spinner and had a much faster turn over. Jan had the best chance of beating Lance, But what happens if you made them switch bikes? Neither would win and Maybe its Tyler Hamilton on the podium. Swimming is no different and a closer match as far as the principal of pulling yourself through the water, Swimmers have different styles and turn over rates to achieve the same results.
Even if we look at blade surface area, we can get different results from different styles of blades with the same surface. Kialoa makes two small blades, The Helium and the Hollyakala. Both are 108 sq in. For me the Holly has too much grab on the water, I prefer a slight slip of the blade to allow a faster rate, I know this does not make sense but if comes back to what works for each individual.
#9 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 5:07am
As if there isn’t enough dissention on this topic already, how ‘bout I throw this in:
Can’t the technique and efficiency of stroke of the individual paddler lead to a predisposition for a specific blade size?
For example would a novice paddler who has a predisposition for cavitations benefit (or be forced into better efficiency) by utilizing a larger blade face that forces a more solid anchor due to the increased surface area. And on the flip side, an experienced paddler with good mastery of efficient technique may not need as much blade face to achieve similar returns and can therefore avoid the wear-and-tear of a bigger blade alluded to in previous posts.
On a personal note I’m not a big guy but the only thing I have going for me is that I’m relatively pound-for-pound strong. So unlike Ocean Ohana (who paddles like a hummingbird by the way), the lower stroke rate and bigger blade face work for me because it allows me to apply more force per stroke. This also helps to make-up for my less-than-perfect stroke (somewhat).
#10 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 7:17am
Kinda along the same line, would you benefit more with a long stroke with a bigger blade, let the boat glide for a second or two between strokes or small blade using short quick strokes? I recall Karel JR at the clinic saying he utilizes the glide of the boat between strokes..........
#11 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 9:21am
Good stuff Ocean Ohana and Six as One. It really does come down to efficiency. I personally like the analogy to biking. Lance Armstong from what I have heard, did change the biking philosophies by going to the higher gear and spinning faster to be more efficient. He did win the the Tour DeFrance seven times. Of course, it must have fit his body, muscle type. Slimmer possibly and fast twitch. I am also of this body type and am more efficient with the higher stroke count with some slip on the blade for the longer races. Shorter races, less slip. Six man is abit different because you have more speed and momentum. Example, the Tahitians. They are using large blades and high stroke count. They have a super efficient movement by using a high spin stroke and large blades and hit the entry aggresively. Using they're high fitness level to they're advantage.
So, that leads into the probability that a paddler of less fitness and efficiency would use a slower stroke count and would need a larger blade. OK, thats enough from me. I'm out.
Happy Holidays everyone. A Hui Ho
#12 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 10:11am
i am not sure I agree with six as one on the idea that a bigger paddle is better for the beginner. My feeling is that a bigger blade hides bad technique, If you have a cavitating issue that is being hidden by the bigger blade you can't fix the problem thinking your stroke is fine, a smaller paddle forces you to use better technique exposing the flaws.
#13 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 11:49am
I have to agree with Clarkie , his choice in paddle size is almost exactly the same as mine . 8 inch blades work very well over long distances on flatwater and blades 9 " or slightly bigger should work well for shorter races or chasing waves going downwind ......
#14 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 12:42pm
The 8" is not a blade I start with on a very long race, just a backup if it goes pear shaped with my normal choice. Having said that Bondy and I paddled the Murray Marathon one year (404km) with 8" blades just to see what would happen. The result was no difference in boat speed but we needed a higher rate, the shafts were shorter as well. They were easy to paddle with but changing speed to jump on a wash was harder because we were already rating high and had nowhere to go. So know it's just a medium sized blade that we can cruise with and run between strokes and change up if we need to. A good example of this was on Rambo's Red X The Movie we went hard for the first hour and then maintained speed until the last 20km's then pushed for home expending what energy we had left.
http://inlandoutriggers.blogspot.com/2008/12/redx-movie.html#links
The movie goes for awhile but it is a Rambo Classic, you'll get a better resolution on Rambo's blog.
#15 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 2:16pm
Hi Clarkie,
I am not so sure about your logic to use a smaller shaft length when you down size the blade width.
But.. I have never paddled a race like the Murray. To do a 92km race day after day... I would need to use an OC6 with 8 other strong paddlers and do the change over thing... and only show up for the one day!
92 km into the wind, flat water... I can not begin to imagine....I can only refer to my limited experiences...where as.... you know what can get you to the finish line....
I can not imagine what would get me to that start line. That is pure crazy.
I saw what Rambo looked like at the end of that race...healthy and happy is not what he looked like.
a standing thin corpse is a good description.
putting extreme paddling aside a good crew can paddle just as well..or better with a teaspoon paddle blade as can a crew that uses a snow shovels... in any other situation.
All we need is a good anchor. Why use a bigger blade than necessary... because it looks good!?
#16 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 3:08pm
I don't think there was much logic to it, just a theory floating around at the time that the smaller paddle was the go. 49" shaft as against the 52" we were using. Now its just a good light spare for downwind and marathon runs. Now I use a 50-51" shaft, but I sit low in a Pegasus, find myself reaching for the water on the Zulu double which is much higher off the water but the six seems fine.
Rambo and I went for a matching pair of paddles for the Murray Marathon even though we are different heights, we both take a medium T shirt! We were able to blend after an hours practise (after the start gun went off our practise started) and we were insync most of the way except when I was dipping my hat in the water, he has hair, a distinct advantage in summer.
#17 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 6:18pm
so from what ive read on here the most important part is how you use your paddle(technique), and that the width of the paddles have their own pros and cons. when you use a wide paddle you have to exert more energy, and additional ware and tear as well (until your muscles climatize) and with a smaller blade, you can put over more strokes per minute. with less fatigue.
so what do you guys think about dyhedrals on blade faces? i remember when i paddled for highschool, we had this one boy that my coach gave him a padle with a nice scoop and told him to break it. regardless the paddle finally broke. this might've been covered before, but looking at the paddle it seemed that the scoop would help with additional lift, although bad technique, like pulling too far back would be even worse than the average paddle.
and when i was training for molokai, i remember a padler telling me something about how the padle needs a dyhedral on the back, not only to help move water around the paddle and reduce cavitation but to keep "new water" hitting the blade, he explained it something to me like "you dont swim with scooped hands." of course this is totally someone else's opinion. well i learned to paddle a surfski a while back and i thought about the scoop on the paddles, until my coach told me bout how the lip on surfski padles moves the padle away from the boat, which made me understand what that paddler told me, because with a surfski paddle new water is constantly flowing through the scoop of the padle.
point of all this is that ive seen people do really well with paddle with no dyhedrals take danny ching for example ive never seen his personal paddle, but all the mudbrooks that ive seen have a flat bladeface. i am also taking into consideration that danny ching could paddle well with a 2x4. i was wondering what your guys opinion was. thanks
#18 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 8:18pm
With a ZRE power surge you can catch more water so you get a blade smaller than what you are used to in a flat blade, also means it can be made lighter and do the same job.
We have a set of beautiful Xylo wood blades (basically a flat face), they feel great (P2 shape). Still go back to my light ZRE for OC1. Thin carbon tip makes a nice entry.
Maybe there is some tradition attached to the flat blade, coming from Aus we are making our own traditions, I used ZRE in flatwater and bought the tougher Outrigger version when I got my first OC1 otherwise who knows what I would be using now.
#19 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 9:39pm
In regards to dihedral paddles, some say they make it easier to get an even pull without fluttering (i.e. the paddle wavering in or out instead of parallel to the canoe). So some say that novices should use a dihedral blade face to learn control and technique.
Some say havng a dihedral blade face doesn't give them a good enough catch (anchoring) as the water flows away from the blade easier than a flat blade face paddle. So they say it reduces efficiency when they have a dihedral.
It doesn't matter if it does have a dihedral or flat blade face, as anyone can learn to control their stroke without fluttering as they practice more and get better at it.
The below is from an article from Stand Up Paddle Surfing Magazine about choosing a paddle and give a pretty good example about dihedrals.
#20 Mon, 12/22/2008 - 10:39pm