Hi all,
I am trying to put together a chart that shows the development/ evolution of the Hawaiian OC 1. If you remember any of the various boats from the very beginning until now, please put some data in a form if you like to:
http://spreadsheets0.google.com/viewform?key=pysrKeQ8s9FmOKwVUF1KPfg&hl=en
Results here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pysrKeQ8s9FmOKwVUF1KPfg
Will be published here as a graphic when complete.
Submitted by eckhart diestel on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 8:25pm
Gator, jettisoned to me from my bro in disgust after a ZERO-integrity recommendation from a nothing-but-a-used car salesman.
My 5'2"wife could paddle away from me in her 15' kayak.
#1 Thu, 01/01/2009 - 8:35pm
Thanks for replying - if you can fill in some of the blanks/? please do so ( see first post ) . It will take a while to collect all the data.
#2 Thu, 01/01/2009 - 10:40pm
The 'History of OC 1' is taking shape - very interesting.
See here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pysrKeQ8s9FmOKwVUF1KPfg
I know that Dale Adams did the first Molo Solo in the 70ies on a kayak.
Walter Guild built some outrigger type vessels based on kayak and/or Tahitian designs.
Any info about that would be great. Mahalo for responding.
You can post some data to an easy form - see first entry of this thread.
The form can also be found here:
http://www.oc1design.blogspot.com
#3 Fri, 01/02/2009 - 7:38am
Pre - Hurricane was the "Makani". Micheal's boat was very popular here on Maui back in the '90's.
:)
#4 Fri, 01/02/2009 - 7:50am
When did the Hurricane come out.
Who designed the boat ?
#5 Fri, 01/02/2009 - 8:02am
The Makani was built before the Hurricane back in the 90's by
Michael Giblin - Maui Fiberglass and the Hurricane was early 2000.
:)
#6 Fri, 01/02/2009 - 8:20am
In 1986 there was a guy on Maui nicknamed "Pineapple" (seriously). He and John Robison built a two piece OC1 and brought two of them to Kona on an airplane. We had a very small oc1 race in Kailua bay. The canoes leaked a lot, but were easily transportable. We took those two canoes to Taiwan in 1987, and gave a Hawaiian oc1 demonstration at a Dragon Boat race and festival in Taipei.
In 1988 the IPCF, now IVF, Sprints were held on Oahu, and Walter Guild made the rudderless canoes for those races. They were purchased after the races, and a couple of them wound up in Kona. The wooden seat was adjustable by sliding
it forward or backward on the gunnels. I think that canoe was the prototype for a canoe named Kaiwi Challenger, which did have a rudder.
#7 Fri, 01/02/2009 - 10:05am
Happy New Year everyone....
Eck, Tiger also made the Kamau one man, I believe it was after the Makia and before the Pahoa. M. Judd paddled it with much success and I believe it was also the boat he was using during Mike's now famous "Whale Rider" experience. No one will ever forget that one.
One more thing...was Stever Blyth or Kai Bartlett responsible for the Polaris?? I know Kai help build it, but I thought Blyth designed it.
Also, my good friend shared a story about Tommy Holmes, Paul Gay, and a third person from the Outrigger Canoe club cannot remember his name....a nephew of Kline Mann, old time Outrigger supporter who has gone on to the big channel in the sky. Anyway, these three guys jumped in the ocean kayak race back in the late 70's when Kalai Handley, Grant Kinney and some of the other blokes from down under, started the channel races on ocean kayaks. Those 3 guys designed and raced their own canoes. Someone should get hold of Paul Gay to ask about that. This was way before Walter G. started molding the first rudderless one mans that was taken off of a Tahitian one man...the same boat that Mike A. is talking about that was used for the first world sprints in the early 80's.
JawsOut.
#8 Fri, 01/02/2009 - 11:11am
Paul Gay is definitely on the list of people I need to talk to.
Usually he says A copied from B and B was a copy from C and iut all started from a K1. I am sure he has a very good story to tell.
#9 Fri, 01/02/2009 - 2:15pm
The birth of the modern bump riding "One Man" outrigger canoe began in 1991 during the Kaiwi Challenge Race when Tom Conners and Kala Judd in a C-Ski equipped with ama and na iako surfed away from all the long needle nose Horizon canoes to Oahu from Molokai. That race demonstrated what bump riding was all about, and many old and new surfskis began being converted, mostly by John Martin, into "One-mans." Demand for bump riding one-man's increased and John Martin introduced the first production bump rider, Honu Kai, canoe in 1993. Soon, Walter Guild, the manufactuer of the Horizon canoe, and Brent Bixler came out with the 2nd production bump riding canoe called the Kaiwi Challenger. Fortunately, a legal issue was settled and many more canoe builders entered the market with their own designs.
#10 Sat, 01/03/2009 - 3:41am
Tiger Canoe,
Tiger's first canoe is not listed. I forget the name- it was prior to Ono. My friends and I called it the Dolphin, because it had a nose that looked like that. around 1994/5. It might have been called Tiger 1.
#11 Sat, 01/03/2009 - 8:15am
The facts of the matter begin to emerge
"fortunately a legal issue was settled and many more canoe builders entered the market with their own designs"
Any details on this 'legal issue' ?
#12 Sat, 01/03/2009 - 9:09am
It will take a while to gather an accurate account.
One thing I am interested in is: who 'borrowed' from whome - if that can be established reliably.
Not to point fingers, but to understand which design features made it into the next round.
Example: OC 1 cockpit with enclosed seat is now being used on quite a few canoes. Credit should go to the original designer.
Also things like who originated the entire idea.
If Dale Adams was the first to cross the Kaiwi channel solo with a friend or two in ? 76 then this should be known and talked about; maybe a race or a reward can be named after them.
I am not collecting anything related to kayak/SS but their efforts started it all and matters for OC 1 for that reason.
#13 Sat, 01/03/2009 - 4:29pm
I heard Dale Adams tried to swim the channel several times befere his kayak crossing. I've also heard stories of old time Hawaiian beach boys swimming the channel, and tales of ancient Hawaiians swimming it, and I'm sure it was crossed many times in wa'a prior to European contact. I can't remember her first name, but a girl named Isayama swam the channel in the early 90s. At any rate, it's not some new endeavor, although Adams certainly got the ball rolling in terms of the modern race. I believe Kalai Handley won the 1st surfski crossing, and Pat Erwin the 1st oc-1 solo. I'm not sure, though, ask Pat.
#14 Sat, 01/03/2009 - 4:51pm
The Panther made by Twogood was a licence built Anderson OC1 from Australia
#15 Sat, 01/03/2009 - 7:10pm
The most significant development was the addition of the rudder by Walter Guild to his Horizon one-man outrigger canoe in the late 80's. The Horizon was the first production solo outrigger canoe to be sold with one. The Horizon was later made by Tiger in Kona where the water was more suitable for it.
The second most significant development was the conversion of surfskis to outriggers. This way paddlers who couldn't balance on surfskis were able to enjoy the ocean and the bumps. Conversions were later superseded by production models. Prior to conversions, only surfskiers enjoyed the bumps. Now everyone had access and popularity of the new one-mans soared.
The third significant development was the concept of unlimited design, pioneered by Kanaka Ikaika founder Dale Adams, who withstood the pressure for design standards, weight, length, and width restrictions for the one-man canoes in the races. This unlimited concept open up and made possible all the new one-mans and innovations we enjoy today. So beware of the ICF and "STANDARDIZATION."
#16 Sun, 01/04/2009 - 11:16am
Robin Isayama is listed as the first female to complete a channel swim. She is also a pretty good paddler too.
http://www.hawaiiswim.org/HSHOF/2005Inductees/robin_isayama/robin_isayam...
#17 Sun, 01/04/2009 - 11:44am
Who had:
first aluminum iakus ?
first rubber seat ?
first foot well drains ?
first hull drain with rubber stop ?
First high tech layup Carbon/Kevlar ?
Mahalo for posting replies.
#18 Sun, 01/04/2009 - 9:40pm
Dale Adams...that's the guy. In my earlier post I mentioned Tommy Holmes, Paul Gay and could not remember the third person. All I know is that he was Cline Mann's nephew. I think it was Dale.
Those three were the first...no question.
Legal Issues?? I believe it was Walter trying to stop J. Martin and others from crashing his one man party.
J. Martin took it to the next level when he had the Foti's destroying everyone in the Honu Kai.
Karel Sr. for taking it from there with all the R & D and putting boats on the water. One, sometimes two boats a year. Sad that J. Martin didn't stay on it when he had the Honu Kai because John would have been so much further along than the others. Give Karel credit for snatching the Foti's from John and putting the boys in his boats. I guess he was coaching Lanikai already, so it would have been inevitable.
JawsOut.
#19 Mon, 01/05/2009 - 12:47pm
Some of the early one mans were more like paddleboards with an ama. In about 1980 Dale Hope and Bill Bright paddled the solo on two of those built by Joe Quigg.
#20 Mon, 01/05/2009 - 1:16pm
What about the "Sniper"...I think by Walter, after the Kaiwi Challenger.
#21 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 3:47am
1968 - do you know more about that boat ?
#22 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 8:34am
Perhaps we should start with the definition of an outrigger canoe, for the old timers use to tell me (small kid days) that if you removed the ama and iako, the canoe or hull would huli or turnover. Just how many of today's one-mans fit that description? With the exception of the old style "Tahitian" one-man's, most would remain upright. So really, are today's modern one-man's actually true outriggers? Just curious.
#23 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 9:23am
Eckhart, I don't really. Our club had 2 of them about 8 years ago (and they were bought used then). They were long with minimal rocker. Surfed poorly compared to more current boats, but fast on the flats. I had just picked up my first oneman, a used viper, and could paddle pretty easy next to someone paddling hard on the sniper.
Josh
#24 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 10:31am
I added some info about innovations in OC 1 on my blog to read for those that are interested.
Some of the info may not always be correct - please speak up if you don't agree.
Personally I would love to trace the development all the way back and chronicle - as good as possible - who contributed along the way.
From Dale Adams, over Joe Quigg, Tommy Connor, Paul Gay, Walter Guild, Karel, Milan, Johnny Puakea, Tiger, Jude, Maui and others I don't know about yet.
It would also be neat to know who were the team riders in the different times that helped develop these boats.
I am sure that they contributed.
http://www.oc1design.blogspot.com
#25 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 2:34pm
I added some info about innovations in OC 1 on my blog to read for those that are interested.
Some of the info may not always be correct - please speak up if you don't agree.
I would love to trace the development all the way back and chronicle - as good as possible - who contributed along the way.
From Dale Adams, over Joe Quigg, Tommy Connor, Paul Gay, Walter Guild, Karel, Milan, Johnny Puakea, Tiger, Jude, Maui and others I don't know about yet.
It would also be neat to know who were the team riders in the different times that helped develop these boats.
I am sure that they contributed.
http://oc1design.blogspot.com/2009/01/oc-1-history-significant-steps-in-...
#26 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 3:20pm
I haven't heard anyone mention the Thunder. Karel made it. It had a blunt nose and was supposedly made for bigger guys. Kalani Irvine used to rip on his but then so did John and Jim. I was reminded of it when 1968 brought up the Sniper.
Walter and Mark Rigg used it one year in the Molokai Relay.....this is when it first came out and Walter was promoting it heavily.....full page ads in Pacific Paddler etc. Well, Walter and Mark used the Sniper and I'm pretty sure John and Jim were on a Thunder......John and Jim won and the Sniper was left to gather dust under the house.
#27 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 7:01pm
Believe it or not, a Thunder actually made it Down Under. A mate of mine Thor still has it at the back of his house. This would be another one that Karel brought out for Hammo.
I should be collecting these old canoes for the Rambo's Locker Museum
Rambo
#28 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 7:27pm
To bad we just sold a old Horizon canoe that would go perfect in a museum.
#29 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 7:38pm
Hahaha ... i just read my post about the Thunder, kind of fitting that a bloke by the name of Thor would have a Thunder being the Mythical God of that name. ..Hahaha
Rambo
#30 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 7:52pm
Rambo, I was thinking that we could try to make a 'picture museum/gallery' of all the OC 1 models, starting from the very beginning.
Ideally profile,plane and front view.
#31 Tue, 01/06/2009 - 9:44pm
How about adding Dean Hayward's Holua surfski (developed in the mid 80's to go parallel with the sea), which is the great great great grandaddy of some of todays popular canoes. For it is the hull that led to the C-Ski, which Steve Blyth in Hilo, eventually fashioned to become the Wave Blade.
#32 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 12:51am
Gees-us Ecky, you and i are almost old enough to be museum pieces ourselves ...hahaha
Yeah OK , I'll go take pictures of the Thunder and the other dinosaurs around here.
Rambo
#33 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 1:03am
Almost, Rambo, almost - it is good that you put that in there ... and those who are not, are not aware that they soon will be ... :)
Koakanoe - I have Tommy Connors kayak mold as 'parent' for the waveblade in the list ( second link in the first post )
Anybody with pictures of older OC 1 models ? Please post them here, then we can collect them.
#34 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 8:51am
The story about Walter Guild creating the first Hawaiian OC1 did not rig true, and the info supplied in this thread confirms it.
Puting a rudder onto a Tahitian lagoon canoe is one thing, but puing an outrigger onto a sit-on is another thing.
I am looking at the section lines of hulls in Tommy Holmes book "The Hawaiian Canoe" and think that characteristic features of the genre are easily reconizeable..........what you are calling Hawaiian a canoe is something different.
Calling the new breed Hawaiian one man outriggers makes sense, and it is interesting following its development from the early hybrids. This logically began when John Martin and others converted skis.
Seems that Walter Guild tried to subvert this trend, for his own gain, by trying to use existing regulations (length, weight etc.) as an instrument. Result of which is a general opinion that any regulation is bad...... understandable from the consumers point of veiw because a monoply is a bad thing, but is a flawed argument in the long run
#35 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 9:57am
I know thank you, just wanted to link that hull to its original source.
Also, the Arrow 1 that's listed as Karel's long boat, is it from the old Tahitian mold that Paul Guy had stored in his back yard? As I remember it, due to possible lawsuit, it was only sold as a "club boat" and mostly Lanikai and Waikiki Beach Boys paddled it. It was in the same category as the Horizon and not a bump rider.
#36 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 10:05am
That may very well be. I am not even sure that it was sold for profit, Iheard something about it, but would need to talk to Outrigger Connection to find out.
Paul Gay brought the first Tahitian boat to Hawaii. I will ask him about that time.
#37 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 12:48pm
Cool Ill go get pictures of that old Horizon canoe for that museum
#38 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 5:41pm
Regarding Paul Gay, it is interesting to note that he paddles a Naia Iki and is amazingly fast on it. He must of learned something about it from the gals?
#39 Wed, 01/07/2009 - 10:53pm
"start with the definition of an outrigger canoe"
Simple test for this -- put the hull in water..... only the HULL, no deck or anything else. Put water into the hull to make up its full displacement weight.
Now if this hull needs something (like an outrigger) to stop it rolling over, then it passes the first test.
If it does not hold the water or continues to fill with water through a hole in the bottom, then it obviously does not have hull integrity in the manner of a CANOE, as has been the case for thousands of years.
#40 Thu, 01/08/2009 - 10:41am
Whatevah you like call 'em, they sure are fun in the surf!
#41 Thu, 01/08/2009 - 1:54pm
"they sure are fun in the surf"
If sit-down surfing is the most fun surfing, then yeah.
Strangely I suggested to someone who has one of my cockpit canoes that they use a new hurricane(recently purchased) as the surf toy and keep the V1 for rudderless use. They insist that it is better to keep the cockpit canoe as a surf toy, so that the lightweight sit-on does not get broken in the surf.
I figure that a surfboard is the best toy for the surf, and use a canoe for pure paddling.
#42 Fri, 01/09/2009 - 8:32am
I purchased my OC-1 Makani from Michael Giblin in March 1998, Maui where it was shipped to me in San Francisco. I practiced with Mt. Tampalpais and raced it once or twice. I still have it and will take pictures and post here.
#43 Tue, 05/18/2010 - 8:15am
To Koacanoe - Paul Gay, my dad, helped develope the Naia Iki with John Martin. He has one of the first ones made. He and John played with the proto type for quite a while. As for whether our Tahitian one man was ever copied and manufactured - I'll have to check. Sorry don't remember. It is possible, may be similar to Walter Guild's one man we used in the 1988 world sprints at Keehi Lagoon. My Dad used to put me on the Tahitian one man in our canal (Kawainui) and make me figure out how to go straight, I was only about 11yrs old. That was one of his ways of teaching me to learn to steer with out poking, works pretty darm well. Great discussion guys.
#44 Tue, 05/18/2010 - 2:23pm
Got info on the Tahitian designs put together and raced in California for the 1984 Olympic Outrigger canoe as a demonstration sport. about 12 plus of these canoes were produced and raced in California...then used by guys for V-1 racing there. I still have one that I got from Bud Hohl in Newport, and sent to Kona in 1991 and still have it. They are 26' long, open cockpit and have a sit on top adjustable seat.
#45 Wed, 05/19/2010 - 10:10am
A lagoon V1 of 1984 is essentially the same as any va'a of a thousand or more years old........the hull is a shell with cockpit open above water, and seating between the decks.
OC1 in Hawaii is obviously a different animal, with borrowing from a SS, just as open cockpit kayak is different to SS, and this discussion has revealed some interesting facts.
For those of us outside Hawaii there are only 3 printed records of development --
Tommy Holmes.....The Hawaiian canoe
Steve West.......Kanu culture etc..
OCPaddler.com
Tommy Holmes has great integrity, Steve West has great coverage of most paddling practice, but a selective version of canoe development, and OCPaddler .com has everything from pure BS to interesting facts.
Having only very recently got hold of Steve West's book 'A paddlers guide to OC', I am gratefull for the facts in this thread to fill in the gaps of selective OC development in that book. Like for instance the simple fact that a number of people put an ama onto some or other sit-on craft before Walter Guild.....why! I even heard that some old guy lashed an ama to a SS back where I used to live. Sure, it wasn't Hawaii, but it was the place where open Ocean paddling spawned those who dominated the Molokai channel solo for many of the early years.
#46 Wed, 05/19/2010 - 12:32pm
It's funny how this thread has opened up hidden info or not widely known info. The guy (Fleety) that attached an ama to a surfski here in OZ (mentioned in Westy's book) was actually banned from racing it in OC races by the AOCRA race director at the time. It was deemed to be cheating. We were paddling 27ft rowing sculls with ama attached and a raised surfski bucket glassed on top, but these were legal ..hahah ..go figure. The Surfski with ama flogged us big time, especially if there was any swell about. The same guy was banned for having a duel rudder system, the smaller of the two rudders was forward of the paddler
Did the duel rudder work ...... ???? ...ummm....no.
R
#47 Wed, 05/19/2010 - 1:02pm
Side story ...
Was noodling around the rocks with my goggles on. Came up, glanced around and saw a ski paddling towards me, next time I came up it was an OC-1 ! For a lucent split second I thought I was dreaming. Nope. It was Keith Keillor paddling his Victory Special ( surfski ) conversion model.
aloha,
pog
#48 Wed, 05/19/2010 - 1:28pm