I know the standard 220 - your age but there are ways to find out individual heart rate max's using sprints etc, etc. Anyone know this method? I was told Karel Sr had a formula and its probably on here somewhere but with no working search function it cold take forever. Thanks for any input both serious and non.
Submitted by jpi92109 on Wed, 02/04/2009 - 11:00pm
You would likely determine your lactate threshold and see at what heart rate it is reached.
http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=405
#1 Wed, 02/04/2009 - 11:14pm
Thanks for the link Eck.
Im told that there is a formula for finding this out utilizing sprints. Something about our threshholds being different because we use most of out blood in our upper bodies compared to triatheletes who use much more of their blood in their lower bodies. There are some upper level 6 man paddlers who will know what im talking about.
#2 Wed, 02/04/2009 - 11:19pm
If you want your paddling Max heart rate do a set of 5 intervals on your one man for 60 seconds each starting at 75% and finishing with 100% for the last effort. It must be max ready to chuck intensity, then take your pulse or read your HR Mon.
Do at own risk. If you have past heart probs or unfit don't do it and have training partner with you.
Cheers Rambo
#3 Wed, 02/04/2009 - 11:25pm
Of more value is your resting Heart rate before you get out of bed in the morning. This will tell you the state of your health.
Ramboscie
#4 Wed, 02/04/2009 - 11:27pm
So just work your way up through the 5 sprints to get good and warm and then goo nuts on #5 and thats your baby? No heart problems or anything here.
Thanks Rambo. I thought it would be more difficult than that but glad its not. Dont know how true it is to do this on your canoe vs a runner/biker method but even on Eck's link they show different max's for their run vs bike.
Thanks again guys.
#5 Wed, 02/04/2009 - 11:29pm
This worked for me. Better than any planned work out you could possibly do.
1) Do a surfing run on a big, "honking" day.
2) Three fourths into the run, which for me was about 8 miles into it, wander a little too close to a break that is roughly about 2 miles off shore and usually doesn't break unless of course it is a big "honking" day.
3) Paddle your ass off to miss the freak sets, which were probably about 15 feet Hawaiian.
4) Finish the run then look at the max heart rate of that run.
Guaranteed!!! You'll reach a heart rate that you could otherwise never reach by doing anything suggested above!!!!
#6 Wed, 02/04/2009 - 11:53pm
That's no fair Pete, that's Adrenaline ...
Rambo
#7 Wed, 02/04/2009 - 11:59pm
effectivepull - that's what I was trying to say, too.
Your max heart rate just shows that your young, healthy, old, sick etc. - as Rambo says
You can use it to calculate 'zones' in which you want to keep your HR while training.
More valuable/precise is your lactate threshold; that is the level of exercise /~ HR when your lactate levels suddenly start jumping up quickly.
The target is to move that threshold so that you can train/perform longer without that lactate jump.
I think Rambo said all that above already.
The '220 - age' was the first useful formula that two guys established. It is still used in the protocol when you do a treadmill. It is just a rough guide, doesn't mean much.
Karel Jr monitors his lactate levels.
For those not that familiar with it, simplified version:
Lactate builds up due to muscle break down during exercise. To a degree it can be cleared. If the exercise intensity gets up too high, it will build up in the body and interfere with many functions.
That happens at the lactate threshold.
#8 Thu, 02/05/2009 - 10:48pm
Thats funny Peter! True, but funny.
Echart im sure your right but at this point im gonna have to go with Rambos method cuz if I start lactating I think ive got other issues.
#9 Thu, 02/05/2009 - 3:54am
eck, max HR is max HR. Think you're talking about anaerobic thresh hold. Rambo's method will work, a good warmup, a series of increasingly difficult intervals culminating in a final blow chunks one. Fun or what?
#10 Thu, 02/05/2009 - 5:45am
Its kind of like giving back to the environment. Just glad its only 5. Every time ive done the 20 1 minute sprints it ends in fish food.
#11 Thu, 02/05/2009 - 6:34am
I believe he magic number is not max HR, but your HR at your lactic acid threshold.
#12 Thu, 02/05/2009 - 8:09pm
Max heart rate can't be changed except with age, it's genetic.
On the other hand, you can train to raise the lactate (Anaerobic) threshold level and at what heart rate percentage it starts at.
It's still good to know your absolute Max HR for paddling as all the other percentages are worked from there.
Rambo
#13 Thu, 02/05/2009 - 8:24pm
Thanks for the good info guys. Im just trying to get a more accurate number than 220 - age.
question - if im training at 80% (145), how far above or below is considered acceptable? How far above or below do you guys go??
#14 Thu, 02/05/2009 - 9:43pm
JP,
If you're just looking for some quick ideas there's some good info posted. However if you really want to clear the ambiguity's of HR training there's an excellent book: "Total Heart Rate Training" by Joe Friel. I bought it last year and although I've often used HRM's for training I definitley have brought it up a few notches using this book as reference, erradicating many myths about HR training. Technical enough for the athlete, readable enough for the recreationalist, and not too long or expensive. Definitely worth a look. IMO, HR training has a significant place in OC training.
#15 Thu, 02/05/2009 - 9:58pm
Why not just spend the bucks, and have it determined professionally?
So go see your doctor and if they don't do it, have them write you an order to have it done. Make sure they specify the "super max protocol" for trained athletes, and not the every day common garden variety they give out of shape patients. There is a difference!!!! After all, you want it taken to the max!!! You can also bet it will show any hidden heart ailments too! Worth it.
#16 Thu, 02/05/2009 - 10:04pm
Dont know if ill really take it so far as to go the medical route but ill check the book out for sure cuz now youve got me curious as to how I can tweek my HR training to get more out of it. Ive only just started using one a few months ago and have just now gotten on a real "program" for 1 man season which utilizes a HRM about 90% of the time. Thanks for the suggestions guys.
Now, any tips on how to keep the damn thing from sliding down? Seems like the natural movement of paddling tends to push it down below your lats.
#17 Thu, 02/05/2009 - 10:41pm
You can also train the body to "tolerate" high lactate levels, you can also take a supplement to neutralize or buffer lactic acid.
You can also get faster by sitting on the couch with a beer and watching Jr surf the ocean.
Yours to choose.
Rambo
#18 Thu, 02/05/2009 - 11:24pm
Yes, beer does all that.
#19 Thu, 02/05/2009 - 11:34pm
You could use some spray glue like what swimsuit models use to keep the bikini bottom from riding up their backside while walking or their tops from sliding off while moving.
Or you could try to make some type of "suspenders" to keep it up where it needs to be.
#20 Fri, 02/06/2009 - 2:26am
Both probably good ideas and both I could never share with anyone if I used.
#21 Fri, 02/06/2009 - 2:28am
Actually 220-age (Karvonian formula) is extremely accurate for many. The issue with HR training is everybody's different. Karvonian method is result of developing a universal formula for the majority when all the data resulted in a bell-curve. Of course the problem is all the folks on either side of the median. You could get a test at a facility to find max HR, VO2 Max, Lactate Threshold, etc... But, your numbers will change with training, fitness levels, and age. Once you find max HR, as far as where to train depends on current fitness levels and what you want out of it. There are zones (say 1-5) to train in depending on what you're trying to achieve: base training, recovery, sprinting, etc...
The strap will be lower than you think (below xiphoid process) but will still transmit just fine. When you put it on ensure good connection with spit or the jelly they sell for it. Spit works fine for me then sweat keeps conduction decent.
#22 Fri, 02/06/2009 - 7:12am
I suspect that max HR obtained paddling is actually below ones true max HR. Paddling uses less muscle mass than say cycling, cross country skiing, or uphill running thus a tendency to be limited by muscular fatigue and not cardiovascular. I know that there is no way that I can reach my cycling max HR in the canoe.
#23 Fri, 02/06/2009 - 7:58am
For the sake of discussion: none of these formulas is extremely accurate.
The Karvonan formula is accurately describing the statistical median of a population.
You have to factor in what exercise was used for the Karvonen model, too.
Most equations offer roughly the same degree of accuracy.
The equation “220 - age” is more convenient and less complicated than others.
Max HR in swimming is different from max HR in cycling; statistically about 6 beats lower if I remember correctly.
#24 Fri, 02/06/2009 - 8:56am
@peter
lol peter!
You should try this one.
1: wait till the peak of whale season
2: paddle out, way out, 2-3 miles offshore (warm up phase)
3: once you spot a pod of aggressive male humpbacks, begin to position your 1 man directly in their line
4: as you dodge the breaching mamoths, periodically check your HRM, if you want to increase your max HR, slow down, then continue the interval training with each breach, trying not to let the whales actually land on you or your boat.
#25 Fri, 02/06/2009 - 9:49am
pk and joe, not sure if either of those will make for max HR or just the need to get a new pair of shorts.
#26 Fri, 02/06/2009 - 9:53am
Yeah, what good is all of that if my heart just stops?
As far as my HRM goes, Would the jelly maybe stop it from losing the signal after about 90 minutes? For some reason this happens regularly. Yesterday it happened after 20. So irritating. Why not just use one that monitor from your wrist? Are they maybe not as accurate?
#27 Fri, 02/06/2009 - 11:52am
"I know that there is no way that I can reach my cycling max HR in the canoe."
I have the same problem with running and paddling. I have a good gauge of perceived effort with heart rate, but with paddling it seems that i'm working a lot harder at the same heart rate. This maybe the result of significant ineffeciency in paddling. Time to paddle some more.
#28 Fri, 02/06/2009 - 1:21pm
It takes alot of hard paddling for me to get my HR really high outside of a race day but the HRM at this point just guides me to keep my effort at a constant level. When I say really high I mean above 90%. At this point 80% is a good cruising effort. 90% is really pushing it but anything above that is when I really have to keep my head in it to keep going. Dont know if thats normal compared to others.
Now if I could only find a good HRM. What are some of you using?
#29 Fri, 02/06/2009 - 1:31pm
Get on an indoor training bike, place some matresses around on the floor, wear a helmet, warm up, cycle fast for 5 min, then faster for another 5 min, then faster for ...
Just before you loose conscience and fall on the ground, note your HR : this is your max.
Now if you're still alive, go and get a garmin.
#30 Fri, 02/06/2009 - 5:56pm
swim with sharks and this is your max.HR
#31 Fri, 02/06/2009 - 7:23pm
jp,
HRM's with strap pick up electrical signals from nodes in the heart (not sure which ones), wrist-style HRM's measure just pulse rate I believe. Therefore I would expect more accurate results from chest strap transmitters.
After much research, I settled on the Garmin Forerunner 50. I wanted just a plain old HRM that had direct download capabilities to PC. Polar pissed me off with all their bells and whistles plus unless you are willing to spend over 200 bucks you have to use thier online web interface for downloading which is useless. Garmin hit the money with the 50; under 100 bucks, straight-up HRM with download capabilities, and and you can swim wiith it. I end up using it as my main watch too, but it uses up batteries every few months thought thier cheap. HRM market didn't have any competitors, although it might now.
#32 Sat, 02/07/2009 - 3:30am
Oh right on thanks man! And you can replace the battery yourself? Im told some of the brands have to be sent in to have them replaced?? Simple is what I want and I wouldnt mind being able to track my progress either.
Thanks again. Im gonna check that out today.
#33 Sat, 02/07/2009 - 5:46am
@Chineboy - I read that same book. It's phenomenal. I learned that I have been taking it to easy on my runs for quite some time... on second thought, maybe it wasn't such a good idea to read it. ;)
#34 Sat, 02/07/2009 - 7:54am
jp,
Yes, you can change battery yourself for both the transmitter and watch/receiver in the Garmin. I think Polar makes you send thier stuff in for service, or void warranty. Not trying to push marketing I have no other interest in either company, just stating what I know.
Scott, Yeah I hear ya, I had all kinds of misperceptions about HR training until using that book..and I still got a long way to go.
#35 Sat, 02/07/2009 - 3:33pm