Was it developed as a:
- a surfski with an outrigger
- a modified Tahitian V 1 modified with a rudder
- a different boat class all together
- surfboard with outrigger
- a shortened OC 6
All the answers are in part right. To which tradition would Hawaiian OC 1 belong ?
For me it does not matter that much - I am trying to understand the 'tradition' issue that flares up regularly on this board.
Submitted by eckhart diestel on Sat, 02/07/2009 - 11:20am
Since this thread has been used as a means for personal attack, supplying the reason for the attack is in order –
I made a joke about the sit-on analogy ( excuse the play on words…….get it ? analogy -- anal -- sit-on. This will probably set dumbwaka off again) and yes, I am not into the most simplified form of boat or mass production.
I started building my own paddling craft choosing the composite construction method requiring female moulds, rather than shaping and covering of foam….like done to make a sski.
A light wooden OC would not have lasted very long on the E Cape coast of SA.
Came to Aotearoa NZ and was pleased to find that waka paddling was alive and well…. Was offered a job to build waka and paddled with a club.
Problem started (which dumbwaka/fred knows all about) when I wanted to build improved models instead of help to freeze development and make the existing models mandatory for all to paddle.
So I built my own design of waka, which people liked and bought. They began winning races paddling them, and demand grew……. to the point that I stopped paddling, trying to keep up with the orders.
Profit has never been worth the time and effort spent, so when dumbwaka so snidely says “I sell stuff so please buy some” and calls me a fool in public, I guess that he is right in what he says……making even a small profit for the money and time spent would be OK, but making a loss is, well, you said it dumbwaka.
When you move shop, design and create a new model with the plugs and moulds required, then you have to sell many canoes to begin making a profit……. I have moved too often and made too many new models to make any profit.
Problem was that I had to keep doing so once started, or else chuck it all in.
So now I have kept a waka and started paddling again…….. see you on the water dumbwaka/fred. If we both paddle rudderless in the Golden masters division then let your paddling do the talking.
Oh yeah! James Clapp…… we are are all “arseholes” according to some or other gutter philosophers definition. You get to choose which kind of arsehole you are.
#71 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 10:29am
Wah, wah. I don't care about your little sob story. I don't care if you're a "traditional" waka builder, just barely able to make a living. You made your choice to be an arsehole, and I'm calling you on it. No other poster comes out here ripping on V1's, or surfskis, or marathon canoes, or Samoan long-boats. Only you. Only you come on here and post after post talk shit about "Hawaiian OC1's". And the fact that you do it because you've got some boats to sell is what seals the deal. You don't care about paddling. Everyone else here does. Everyone else here wants to try V1, or OC1, or K1, or surfski, etc. You just care about yourself, and what you sell. It's obvious.
#72 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 12:55pm
everyone here is being rude to someone else sometimes, but at least we sign our post with our usual names... we don't create a new profile just for that purpose...
I don't care if you're not being nice to goodwaka, but if you believe what you think is true then sign your name, or else shut up. That's what I believe is fair.
#73 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 1:17pm
I talked with one of the senior paddlers that has been around for a long time, built boats and traveled to all the islands.
He says that he is not sure that either V 1 or OC 1 is a canoe in the traditional sense.
He thinks that the first hulls used to make V1 for racing may have been rowing shells that the French brought to Tahiti.
That seems to me a reasonable answer to the initial question.
#74 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 1:43pm
To-Hiro, Dacho, Eckhart,
Okay.
From-Marcus P. Rambutan
Satisfied?
#75 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 1:50pm
dumbwaka: so you arent the same yob as fred, and come to think of it you write more garbage than he does too.
No ripping of sski, K1, V1 or Samoan longboats has come from me.
I take digs at this hype about about sit-on outriggers being called "Hawaiian canoes" for purely marketing reasons, and this is what pisses you off.
If no one ever pointed this fact out then people who come here to learn about paddling would swallow this hype.......whether I sell canoes or not has got nothing to do with it actually.
#76 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 3:11pm
Ha! You're so full of yourself that you think that by "exposing" the farce/hype of Hawaiian outriggers you're doing people a favor? You're not just an arsehole, you're an idiot.
#77 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 3:26pm
Yep well I'm not in favour of personal abuse either...
Eckhart, I'm not sure I follow you: "He says that he is not sure that either V 1 or OC 1 is a canoe in the traditional sense..." This comment is confusing...
I believe both 'craft' can be called' outrigger canoes' according to their defining characteristics (they have an outrigger, and a hull shape indicative of a 'canoe'). Other than that, I have yet to find any strict definition of what constitutes an 'outrigger canoe', or even a 'canoe', for that matter. It is not an English word anyhow... The Maori word for the canoe is Wa'a, Va'a, Waka, Vaka etc and it is used to describe all kinds of canoe, not just outrigger canoes, and not just for a single purpose either.
The issue here is that some seem to be saying one is somehow a more 'legitimate' outrigger canoe than the other, because of a cockpit, lack of a rudder, blah blah blah... I believe it is fundamentally a stupid question.
I pointed out the example of the Niuean fishing boats which evolved into a kind of racing outrigger, in apparent isolation of any outside influence... and it is reasonable to assume this could have also been the case in Tahiti... defininately needs a bit more research.
The key point in all this is that outrigger canoes in Hawaii and Tahiti evolved over time.... and according to the unique conditions in both environements. They are not the same as they were 10 years ago or even 20 years ago... and they continue to evolve.... This is the fundamental problem I have with defining something as 'traditional' - both are clearly not. Their 'cultural' significance is far more important than whether they are 'traditional' or not. Manufacturers have got in on the act now, and to an extent have played on this concept of 'traditionality', but in reality it is meaningless. They are simply just two different types of canoes that may (or may not) have come from the some mother (the dugout), but evolved seperately over time.
Fair enough?
#78 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 3:45pm
If I did'nt care about paddling, then I would'nt write the stuff I do.
Outrigger was once the fastest growing paddlesport around here, and in fact the original type of open canoe paddling is still doing well. The only issue is that there is a movement afoot to "lift paddling a notch" by substituting the basic type canoe with a fake canoe.
I was paddling before it became popular (just not here), and will do so whatever the trend. Let K1 be K1, surfski be surfski and waka ama be waka ama.
If a sit-on with outrigger becomes more popular than surfski because it is slower and easier to use, let it be so.
#79 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 3:53pm
Coc0nut - the way I understood him: Traditional canoe = open, no deck
In that case neither of the two is a canoe and neither has any claim regarding tradition.
Good point: cultural versus traditional.
#80 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 4:15pm
The best source for learning about and getting the facts on canoes is a volume called 'Canoes of Oceania'.
It has all the info available.
If you study the information in it you will find that just about every hull shape and outrigger configuration has been tried way back in time.... decks, coverings... you name it.
Just about the only thing that was not tried, was a full deck with holes right through the hull.
The first time that something of that sort was tried, there was no attempt made to convince anyone that it was a canoe (outrigger or no)......... clearly seen as a new form of craft it was given it's own name.
A paddle is no different..... whether it has 1 blade or 2 blades, it is a paddle just like a boat is a boat whether it has 2 pointy ends or whatever.
We just classify the 1 blade as a traditional canoe paddle...........there is no argument about it. Unless you use the 'surfski is a canoe' argument, in which case a double blade is a canoe blade too.
#81 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 4:29pm
As merely a recreational canoe user I believe that tradition should always follow function. If not, along with other reasons the tradition will flame out. Example: OC-1 or V-1 from the 80's to Now. This goes for civilization, autos, vaa, boats, etc.......... the same concept goes regarding: "Form": form should always follow the function of any design, if followed the outcome is Tradition moving forward. I would prefer to paddle my polaris on a good down wind day than my old arrow. Not to mention my old plywood canoe from my old Tahiti days.
By the way, I enjoy reading all the posts, insight and ideas here on this site. Nuff said..on tradition........!
Marara
#82 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 4:36pm
Talking about form following function, reacreational downwind boating etc.
When going downwind, you can get so much more from the form/function thing by using a sail to catch the wind.
Going through the motions of paddling is still possible.... won't help you go any faster downwind, but isn't the idea of going downwind to reduce the paddling effort anyway?
#83 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 4:46pm
Down wind means following seas and plenty good surfing fun. I did see a cool sail attachment for a V-1 or OC-1 on a NZ website. Looks cool for Kaneohe Bay or Moanalua, maybe a future project.
#84 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 4:54pm
In the tradewind zones yeah. Otherwise downwind stuff can't be the same.
The sail that you have seen advertized is probably similar to the ones used on kayaks. For downwind canoeing over here, the craft to use would be same as used in Hawaii...... not that I make or sell such a thing, mind you.
#85 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 5:40pm
Goodwaka, you really don't give up, do you?
I must admit, it is difficult not to be a little bit insulted by your constant disparaging of Hawaiian style OC1's... might be time to give it a bit of a rest eh? I think it is fairly clear many on this forum don't agree with your opinion, despite being all of us being very familiar with your theme now... we take your point, doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it...
#86 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 6:57pm
I thought we sorted all this out with goodwaka last time all this flared up when he came clean and gave us all his story. Sure goodwaka has niggled away again with his opinion, but at least he is showing restraint and accepting others point of view this time round.
If we become abusive we all lose and the info flow that we all seek is lost or suppressed.
Downwind paddling is fun, Lot's of Kiwis live in Hawai'i now for this reason and enjoy OC1. Andy Penny, Maui Kjeldsen, Rick Nu'u (Samoan but lived in NZ long time) and there are many more. Also Kiwis still living in NZ are finding OC1 surfing great fun too (Kingy Gilbert), but that doesn't mean they are turning their back on V1, it's just a more suitable craft to have fun on in the ocean.
Surf ski paddlers are a different culture, Karel and i talked about this in Perth at the "Doctor" event, sure they love surfing the ocean and are great guys but they don't have that "connection" that OC and V1 paddlers seem to have with origins and traditions. They fit more in the triathlon mold.
The one thing we all love though is the ocean, so we just have to give each other space and respect the rights of all individuals to choose their weapon.
Cheers Rambo
#87 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 7:32pm
We all know there is something "special" about paddling a craft with an outrigger attached no matter the configuration, else we would all just paddle the fastest craft and be done with it.
When some one pokes fun or wants to know why i have a "training wheel" attached to my boat, i just smile because i know something they don't. I don't exactly know how to put that into words but i think Nappy get's real close to it when he say's "I like to paddle". Listen to his voice, it conveys more than just words.
Cheers Rambo
#88 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 7:43pm
Ah the voice of reason... good one Rambo, well said.
#89 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 9:11pm
"Fake Canoe?" What is it? I frankly like the term when applied to any paddle craft that's steered by a rudder or any other means other than a paddle. Both culturally and traditionally, a canoe is steered by a paddle. I miss those days of wild canoes going every which way on the Ala Wai during the Steinlager Sprints, and that great rudderless paddler from Kauai, Steve Baker, with his super wide paddle, beating all the oc-1 paddlers using rudders.
#90 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 11:07pm
Ditto - Well said Rambo!
#91 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 11:09pm
3rd Rambo .... Helps me understand my feeling of limbo when it comes to different craft.
Aloha,
pog
#92 Tue, 02/10/2009 - 11:44pm