How do you teach technique for OC 1 ?
Let us collect web videos and have the experts give their input/correction and drills ?
Format could be :
- Pinki's canal/guard shack
- 16:30 pm
- flat water
- warm up
- start 30 sec apart
- x 3 20 seconds passes: relaxed, race pace, all out.
- post processed videos on the web.
Contact me if you are interested to participate.
Submitted by eckhart diestel on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 9:27am
Awesome idea! Here's what I have now - not in the format you requested though, just me warming up before a run on a very flat day.
#1 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 1:36pm
Ecky, it will be necessary to differentiate style from technique.
Like Tommy said about paddling with no knee cartilage in the other thread, that will effect visually what you see and become their style as they have had to adapt their technique around that. Someone with a bad lower back will have minimal twist etc. but possibly still make the canoe go fast.
Cheers Ramboscie
#2 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 1:44pm
Scott,
It may be good to have a short section of about 20 seconds at every pace.
Relaxed and warming most people have a better technique compared to when stressed. Iow, it would be good to see the technique when it falls apart.
It is nice to know where you paddle.
#3 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 1:50pm
Cool, we'll do!
I paddle out of Long Beach, California, USA. We are in the middle of some foul weather (at least for So Cal). When I get out on the water again - likely the following weekend, I'll try and get some footage to post.
#4 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 1:44pm
Rambo - how would you go about that ?
Posters could add their own comment 'lower back', 'knee hurt', 'new canoe' ... ?
We should have a set of things that we want to comment on: posture, rotation, arms, etc. ...
One of the top coaches has agreed to assist this.
#5 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 1:48pm
Firstly have the poster identify any existing medical conditions that may be effecting the stroke.
Flexibility is poor with most men, they can't touch their toes.
Cameras don't lie, but extreme wide angles (170) like Scotty's GoPro distort things out of proportion.
Ramboscie
#6 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 1:56pm
I wonder how many people are game to post their video for dissemination?? . egos may be hurt......hahaha
R
#7 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 1:59pm
Yes, but we don't want to know any diagnosis, do we ? Knee hurts today, lower back stiff today etc would be enough.
How many criteria should we look at ? 8, 10, 12 ? I have no idea.
posture
arms
hands
legs
rotation
reach
entry
powerphase
exit
symmetry right/left
paddle vertical ?
bounce
general
advice, technique and drills
Ok to hurt ego, keeps people motivated. We should offer a 'second chance' - repeat video after 6 months :) to show the improvement.
#8 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 2:07pm
At the expense of getting our butts kicked from Tommy again for over analysing things, we should include or exclude everything ...hahaa
Maybe the "Judge" could set the criteria, or maybe just .... judge on what they see rather than grade a certain movement?
Rambo
#9 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 2:12pm
Sure the coach will do that; if we set up a framework it may be easier to look through 20 videos ( all about 60 seconds ) or so.
#10 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 2:13pm
it would also be good if the guys had a gps so people could see what the speeds are in correlation to how nice the technique looks.
#11 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 2:15pm
You go first Ecky ...!!
#12 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 2:16pm
Most women develop good technique naturally, but we blokes are so blinded by beauty we can't focus on the technique.
R
#13 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 2:22pm
speed as extra feature. :) - with a radar gun ? Not sure how to capture gps and link it to video.
Ok, no problem ... :(
The women that paddle one man over here mostly have great technique. In six man the mileage varies.
#14 Sat, 02/14/2009 - 12:58pm
I cool with the wide angle distorting things a bit just as long as it makes me look better. ;)
#15 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 5:10pm
About them videos, the way I see it, everything appears to be one-sided in that all attention is concentrated with what's happening above the water, and not with what's happening beneath it. Shouldn't we be more interested in what's taking place with the blade and water beneath the surface? As an avid open ocean swimmer, I use to pay lots of money to have my swim stroke video analyzed. My stroke was never analyzed above the surface of the water. It was always analyzed beneath it or underwater.
#16 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 8:22pm
koakanoe - the best way to do that would be a strain gauge. An email was sent to the University to see if anybody is interested in providing the equipment.
#17 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 8:58pm
underwater video? since a swimmers entire arm is underwater during the stroke, it is a must. i think for the most part, because a paddle is only partialy underwater and is still connected to the shaft above water, we can reasonably assume what the blade is doing in the water.
#18 Fri, 02/13/2009 - 9:36pm
I vote for Jackson Monahans dad's post, but at the end of the day, Tommy-boys, "if you really want to improve, keep it simple and don't try to re-invent the wheel" is the bomb. The "determination" he also speaks of is prophetic. I could be prophetic, but Kalani's curriculum was not as advanced as Roosevelts. Oh well, we had hotter babes.
#19 Sat, 02/14/2009 - 6:07pm
KGB -
Ask about boat design, answer 'it's the motor',
ask about nutrition, answer ' had us paddle without water for hours',
ask about technique, answer 'don't complicate', etc.
So improved boat design, optimal nutrition, optimized technique, race strategies and many more questions, such as here trainings methods, do not deserve any attention ?
Even if 'keep it simple' might be a good answer - you still are not able to say what 'it' is.
#20 Sat, 02/14/2009 - 8:00pm
I am not qualified to say what "it" is. Kai Bartlett can comment on technique, Brent Bixler on design, Aaron Napolean on nutrition and Marshall Rosa on race strategies. Unfortunately they don't subscribe to this site. We're all screwed.
#21 Sat, 02/14/2009 - 9:41pm
That's true KGB, but we have our very own "Einstein" in Ecky ..... Poo Poo and Jc keep an eye on illegal advertising and people asking dumb questions ....... Jim is poised to chuck a wobbly when popular culture is breached and Fuzey is ready to pounce on any sales opportunity.
Everyone has a job to do. .....hahaha
Rambo
#22 Sat, 02/14/2009 - 10:08pm
Eckhart: I was hoping Rambo or Hanshead would show us how to rig up cameras underwater on their canoes. Perhaps a plastic window in the hull to view blade action? Or pvc pole attached to ama underwater?
S: You're absolutely right, but I'm always amazed at how a paddler with picture perfect classic form above water just can't keep up with the paddler with sloppy technique. Somehow, someone is doing it right underwater where it counts?
#23 Sat, 02/14/2009 - 11:13pm
Rambo - Einstein, does he paddle ?
KGB -
Where is A's technique tutorial, B's instructions about boat design, C's guide about nutrition, D's handout about race tactics ?
Such knowledge is worthless unless it is shared.
#24 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 4:06pm
I agree, knowledge is worthless unless it is shared. Point I was trying to make is basically this.... trial and error is way better then reading some book, etc. at least when it comes to paddleing. So put in the time, observe those around you and draw your own conclusions. All of the aforementioned will tell you this. Ironically, I spent a bit of quality time yesterday with Aaron at Heeia prior to the race. His Dad and Mom drove me to my first Makaha Surfing Championships a bajillion years ago. Anyway, among other things, we discussed the virtues of eating Spam. I am telling you this because here is a world class waterman, who is not at all obsessed with his nutrition and will school us in OC1, SUP, Paddleboard, Ironing board racing, you name it. Courtney Seto and a shocked Paula Crabb are my witnesses. Like Tommy-boy said, keep it simple, don't try to re-invent the wheel.
#25 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 4:49pm
Interest is not equal to obsession.
Tommy made a good point, but he did not answer the question.
smonahan says technique is important, but did not answer the question either.
The way I understand their answers: ' how should I paddle ?' is to general to be answered.
If you think that you can win against champions without asking those questions, then you are wrong.
It is not by chance that the solo races are won by the same few paddlers, surfski as well as OC 1, every year - that is a result of very careful planning, analysis and execution/hard work.
You can keep your knowledge for yourself, of course, but it would be more beneficial to share it.
Trial and error is way better than reading, true.
But is that the point ? No, because:
"trial and error + knowledge" is definitely better than "trial and error + nothing else"
Maybe down the road more people get interested in the topic.
#26 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 6:03pm
Ecky, it could just be an issue of not wanting to commit the time and or open ones self up to personal attack as happens here sometimes. That is understandable.
Rambo
#27 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 6:06pm
Rambo, understood, there is enough criticism for asking already; how would the answers be treated ? :)
It is also only few people that post. I am not talking about OC 6 btw; I know very little about it and there is no lack of people that know a lot about it.
For OC 1 there should be more structure.
#28 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 6:22pm
I'm so over this.
#29 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 6:25pm
Why do you post then ?
#30 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 6:26pm
Trial and error mutiplied by repetition equals knowledge.
Equation: T & E x R = K
#31 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 7:53pm
Nice equation, Tommy :)
Add a catalyzer: U = understanding
It's optional.
It reduces E.
#32 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 8:34pm
I think you have to have errors in 1 manning in order to really learn. Some things cannot be learned simply because someone tells you so. I mean you can know it but some things you just have to learn by doing them the wrong way. How about replacing error with experience. Either way, same thing. T & E x R is still gonna equal K. Cant learn 1 man from videos, blog sites, or books. There is a lot to be gained from them but wont make you a better paddler IMO.
#33 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 9:00pm
Ah, another TC graduate :)
E was not rejected, jpi
T&E x R + U = K
P = K x A
Performance equals knowledge times ability
Rambo, how do we get to E=mc2 from here ?
#34 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 9:31pm
and no-one even mentions using a Pueo!
wait ...
oops ...
#35 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 10:06pm
I'm not trying to answer for sensey but the answer is
(P+T) x U = P
Yes. Some things cannot be learned simply because someone tells you so. school of hard knocks is the best degree you can get.
pull till you puke
#36 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 10:18pm