Sometimes you see older paddles without a T-grip.
If anyone remembers using them: are the T-grips better in all regards or are certain things that were better without T-grip ?
Submitted by eckhart diestel on Sun, 02/15/2009 - 9:37pm
Sometimes you see older paddles without a T-grip.
If anyone remembers using them: are the T-grips better in all regards or are certain things that were better without T-grip ?
Submitted by eckhart diestel on Sun, 02/15/2009 - 9:37pm
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i think with the t tops its much better and more comfort.
#1 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 10:16pm
vijion - can you see any reason to use a paddle without T ?
#2 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 10:32pm
i was wondering about this too. one time my auntie told me about when she was a kid her canoe club went to tahiti, and when they got back they took her paddle which i guess was the standard no degree big ovoid paddle, which was as tall as she was. and they cut the top of her paddle off turned it sideways and glued it back on.
i was kindof wondering if that's how the t-top paddles became of use, or if anyone has heard similar stories to that.
#3 Sun, 02/15/2009 - 11:02pm
The change to tee top paddles came about in the early 1980's. I believe it was the Illinois Brigade which consisted of marathon canoe paddlers who brought their tee tops to the Molokai to Oahu race. If I remember correctly, they were almost not allowed to use the tee top paddles in that race.
#4 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 8:39am
1) There is nothing better about the straight-shaft, no t-top paddles... If you're a racer.
2) Ask Billy Whitford how the t-top came to Hawai'i.
#5 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 9:49am
Thanks, goto - when you look at some older paddles they have a straight handle - probably for a reason. The only thing that I can think of is that you do not have to rotate you forearm when you use a straight top.
#6 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 11:13am
Growing up with the traditional hawaiian style paddles, I think there may be a short term advantage to holding the straight shaft when you need to bump up your cadence to overtake a competitor, or make a wave. The added stability holding the straight shaft is helpful as well when you're in nasty conditions. But the advent of the T's really changed things. A big ++ on cutting down the weight, height, and increasing the responsive control of hoe since those days of yore.
#7 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 10:47am
I may be mistaken, but i think there is some historical documentation of the t-top being around in ancient times.
#8 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 3:21pm
Historical t-grip -- yep, according to info at hand there was use of t-grip at least more than a hundred years ago in Raiatea.
Also Cook Islands, Chatham Islands and most probably the oldest of all in Melanesia, Queensland and New Guinea
#9 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 3:32pm
I believe it was the Offshore Canoe Club women's team who brought T tops to Hawaii, pretty sure it was under Billy coaching as well.
#10 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 4:38pm
I believe there is documentation of it in old Hawai`i as well, that's what i was referring to.
#11 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 5:31pm
eckhart diestel .. no i cant see not using a paddle with out a T .. i did when i was 10. 30 years ago.. thats what we used for a couple of years.. i recall.. but then T tops was intruduced and the rest is history.. .. but if some one want one of my blades without a T ill make for them..
#12 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 5:49pm
Refer to Moloka'i-O'ahu Through The Years, pages 83-84
Blazing Paddles 1978 showed up to the race with t-tops The rule was changed that year, once a picture of a t-top was found published in a book dated back from 1887 "The Legends and Myths of Hawaii" this book was found at the Bishop Museum. Billy Whitford was a member of this crew.
#13 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 6:05pm
Thanks for all the input - I was just wondering; I have built a paddle and have to put a handle unto it.
It is not that clear though - if a T-handle is without a doubt better, and old pictures show T-handles in Hawaii/Tahiti - why did they disappear in between ?
You wouldn't think that Polynesian people just 'forget' how to make a paddle.
vijion - very nice web site; as said in a previous post, that arm is in a more natural position with a straight handle - maybe that is an advantage in ? conditions ? Long distance ? More relaxed ? Better circulation ? Less rotator cuff strain ?
#14 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 8:03pm
a_paddler - how did Blazing Paddles perform that year ?
#15 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 8:04pm
without a t top you have a longer shaft, you can bury your blade deeper, wich may be usefull when you're paddling a very heavy canoe...
#16 Wed, 02/18/2009 - 12:13am
Now that paddles don't flatter much anymore due to dihedral ( "two- planed" ) design - could it make sense to return to straight shaft handles ?
I have never paddled a straight handled paddle - I am guessing.
#17 Wed, 02/18/2009 - 12:25am
ive paddled with the old style canoe paddles before just to get a understanding of what this sport came from. and they sure can get the canoes moving, but with alot more power.and when soeone comes off timing the rest of the crew can really feel the slack being picked up by their paddles. those guys that did the first molokais with no changes/escortboat and koa canoes were something else.
#18 Wed, 02/18/2009 - 7:43am
It just feels different when you're use to the T-top/Palm grip.
You could always buy an uncut paddle, put a cork/rubber plug where the T-top/Palm grip goes and give it a whirl. Or just borrow a SUP paddle and try it on your OC-1 (might get some funny looks by the others though). Better yet, kneel or sit on a SUP board and "choke down" lower on the shaft and paddle. See it done all the time when the SUP folks get tired.
It might be easier to handle a shaft that is oval shaped vice a round one. The oval shape would give a better referrence/grip to keep the blade perpendicular/correctly in the water while using it.
#19 Wed, 02/18/2009 - 9:12am
my trainer friend says it changes the muscles used in the upper half of your body esp triceps, rhomboid and deltoids.
NO first hand knowledge if that's correct...
#20 Wed, 02/18/2009 - 9:14am
From what I remember from using the old style straight paddles (like what you see hanging on walls for decoration) those shafts were pretty thick and round. My forearms were sore from using them since you have a "deathgrip" on them to keep them straight and just plain holding it. Similar to doing pull-ups on a thicker than normal pull-up bar as your muscles aren't use to the change.
#21 Wed, 02/18/2009 - 9:29am
I imagine that T-tops and other marine technologies that were part of pre-contact Hawaiian innovation were lost as the surfing/paddling culture was discouraged by haole missionaries, and the population was decimated by disease. When these sports were revived in the early 20th century, design was starting from scratch, so to speak. I've heard that pre-contact Hawaiian surfboards in the Bishop Museum are far more advanced than their early 20th century counterparts, for example. We can thank the evil white people of the 18th-20th centuries for this massive and irrecoverable loss of people, culture and technology. Good work, once again, White Devils!
#22 Wed, 02/18/2009 - 2:02pm
Jim - aren't you generalizing a bit ? :)
Not very convincing - there should be a good reason why they had a straight handle.
No ( corrected typo ) T top may not be as good for racing, maybe the better choice for everyday fishing.
You use muscle groups differently and probably more effectively with the hand in a neutral position.
#23 Wed, 02/18/2009 - 7:20pm
eckhart diestel .. i have an idea maybe your next one man race take the t top off and doo the race ill epoxy it back for you if you want :) then there will be a realistic way to tell if its better or not .. aloha Danny
#24 Wed, 02/18/2009 - 3:59pm
I think maybe the big shaft evolved from a push pole like they use in shallow waters in lagoons for fishing. Putting a blade on the bottom allowed them to go to deeper water. ????
Rambo
#25 Wed, 02/18/2009 - 4:29pm
Here's a link to the Bishop Museum database. Not too many photos, but I found a few described as having "handles". http://www2.bishopmuseum.org/ethnologydb/entire3.asp?search=NAME1&NAME1='Paddle,%20canoe'
#26 Wed, 02/18/2009 - 5:01pm
you also got to keep in mind that before days the popular technique was to have a real looong stroke, and that was thought of to be the fastest and most efficient strokes in hawaii at the time.
just like now we think that we have a good idea about how far back to pull, but who knows what will be happening 15 years from now.
#27 Wed, 02/18/2009 - 6:48pm
vijion - I am actually planning to do something similar. I certainly do not expect that a straight handle would be competitive, at least not in my hands. I would expect the effect to be similar to taking the rudder off.
Right now I am figuring out how to paddle the Pueo, so I can't use a new paddle.
I just made a paddle and it does not have a handle yet, that's why.
tyler - if you see some of the top paddlers on windward Oahu - they have a long and deep stroke; very intense, but not much 'explosion' at the beginning.
#28 Wed, 02/18/2009 - 7:17pm
Way back in the old old days, when canoes were used to tow the big ships into the harbor, well that's the stroke and paddle they used. After the Tahitians and the mainland river paddlers demonstrated the superiority of their stroke, There was no way of going back to the old stroke.
#29 Thu, 02/19/2009 - 12:31am
Interesting; thanks for the input everybody.
#30 Thu, 02/19/2009 - 7:10am
Eckhart, grip's not necessary on a self-aligning paddle. Also allows anyone to use it no matter how tall they are.
What have u built? let's see some pics!
#31 Thu, 02/19/2009 - 7:50pm
capnron - hi, that's what I thought;
the problem with the self-aligning paddle may be the self-aligning, may not be suited for all conditions.
I made a bent shaft spooned blade carbon paddle; currently working on the handle. I decided to put a handle on it for now because I do not want to have too many new variables at once. In the end I do not know what is responsible for what.
I think that I came up with a reasonable shape of the blade: about 2" longitudinal scoop, the radius increases towards the basis; transversal is a mild dihedral towards the periphery of the blade; the tip is rounded and the scoop straightens out here.
Once the handle is ready I will have a picture of it. Cleaning it all up will take a while. Getting the edges sharp etc.. It was actually fun building it with a double foam core. It still requires quite a bit of patience.
The main thing will be flutter or not flutter and how much water will the spoon throw up on exit.
#32 Thu, 02/19/2009 - 8:18pm