There has been much banter over time about all the "latest rage" canoes. The Hurricane has gone through very little change since its inception. Is this because the design was ahead of its time? Is there any plan for a "new" Hurricane(probably would be called something else) that anyone has heard of? Why is the Hurricane still so popular with little or no changes to its original design? Just a few thoughts for discussion on a slow Monday at work!
Submitted by kicbacmaui on Mon, 04/27/2009 - 9:56am
Have Fun...Kicbacmaui!
#1 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 9:56am
Yup I agree with you time for a new version -after all ,you have to be ahead of the curve or you will be left in the dust....
#2 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 10:26am
The only thing that matters is: have any of these canoes ever won the Solo Molokai? I'd go with the proven winner of that race, for that's what counts. So which canoes are always winning the Molokai?
#3 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 10:42am
The guys that win the races will win no matter what canoe they use. I'm pretty sure Kai and karel and danny would be at the top no matter what. Karel did win the solo in a viper at one point in time. The hurricane is still good stuff, aint that right jwatts??
#4 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 12:26pm
Good Thread, good question....
The design is great. Period. That is the only reason why it has stayed popular for such a long period of time. From what I heard, the top riders (Foti's, All the Maui Boys, etc.) kept asking Mike Giblin (owner/designer) to make some minor changes like improve the ama and make the seat more comfortable. But for some reason, Mike sat on his a$$.
In come the Kamanu Composite boys. These boys are great paddlers in their own right....the future of one manning. If I was a boat builder, I would be trying to sign the Kamanu boys up to be my team riders. So, what do they do?? Design, build and sell their own boat. Half the battle is won because all the top up and coming one manner's, are all these guys friends....and, a lot of them paddled a Hurricane. Now, they all on Pueo's....and...they all good one manners to begin with, so its a great boat.
Now, Mike is supposedly coming out with a improved Hurricane. When, I don't know. If Jim F. comes to the forum, he maybe able to shed some light on any possible development. One thing for sure, Mike lost almost all his top male paddlers and now the top women are moving to the Pegasus and Pueo's as well.
IMHO....it still comes down to the paddler. The boat helps to some degree, but it's the paddler. If it is the boat, then everybody should sell their Pueo's and by Kai's Scorpius. Also, there is no way Jr. should have won all those solo and relay races as well.
JawsOut.
#5 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 12:30pm
The reason that Karel Sr. has been so succesful is that he stayed ahead of the curve by bringing out new canoes all the time, like every year !
Hurricane hasn't played by that model... maybe now they will have to play catch up.
No gaurentees that they will be succussful with a new canoe..
#6 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 3:35pm
To the victor goes the bragging rights, however, canoe paddlers are a humble group, and if it were any other sport, there would be lots of advertising and hype about being No. 1. Fortunately, I haven't notice this in canoe paddling yet. However, there's no denying that the Molokai solo is the de facto standard to judge canoe performance by, and certainly other popular canoes will win it too some day. Hopefully, they'll be just as humble as today's and yesterdays winners were?
#7 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 5:15pm
"if it were any other sport, there would be lots of advertising and hype about being No. 1."
...brings to mind all those after race interviews in downhill skiing with those hands reaching into frame and turning skis to show logos before the winner finished their sound bite for the camera...
#8 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 5:48pm
I'm sorry Koacanoe but i would humbly beg to differ. I don't believe the Molo Solo is the 'de facto standard' to judge canoes by. It may be the standard by which to compare the paddlers themselves, but not the canoe. The standard by which canoe models are judged are, is by how well they perform in one's own local conditions. Unfortunately for most of the rest of us in the world, we don't enjoy the downwind runs most Hawaiians enjoy, and for which many of the canoe models were originally designed to perform well in. This meant designs with more rocker and higher volume through out the hull were originally favoured for surfing.
However, most of us have races which include a significant amount of paddling into headwinds and waves, side chop and/or a wider range of conditions - which many of the Hawaiian designs simply don't perform well in. That is a fact. It's no secret that the reason the hurricane has sold so well is because it performs relatively well in such a wide variety of conditions. It is an all-rounder.
Now, some smart paddlers/designers have seen that there is a market which exists beyond the Hawaii Kai run, and have moved to fill that niche. The Pueo is one such canoe, and the Scorpius is probably another. In both designs, the rocker has been taken out - and the waterline lengthened to improve performance in flatter conditions (Keizo could no doubt explain it better than I). Good on these guys for doing their homework, and designing canoes which better suit the global market, but are still able to compete well in the bigger stuff.
Please don't think I am having a go at Hawaiian race events or the canoes, I'm not - the people there are all great paddlers and they have some great canoe designs, but some just suit our conditions better than others - and those will be the ones that the international market will ultimately go for.
Peace.
#9 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 7:57pm
Spot on Coconut, couldn't agree more.
The next Hurricane will no doubt be an interesting canoe, but i'm guessing most of the changes will be above the waterline and most likely above the deck.
Cheers Rambo
#10 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 9:10pm
Hiya Rambo - I've often thought that with a slightly higher volume at the front (or at least some water shedding capability) to stop the 'submarining', and a more comfy seat (i.e. a 'sit-in' seat - and softer foam!), and maybe a little longer through the hull, plus maybe shifting the rudder forward slightly, and slapping a larger volume, 'raised' ama on the hurricane - you would have a winner. Oh wait, did I just describe the Pueo?!!
But anyway, what do I know, I just paddle.
#11 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 9:53pm
Actually you just described the Pegasus and that's the reason i switched 2 years ago. Still love my Hurricane though.
Did you watch the Vaka Eiva Round Raro C/O race Video Coconut?? It's on the Blog.
http://rambos-locker.blogspot.com/2007/07/why-im-changing-over-to-pegasu...
http://rambos-locker.blogspot.com/2007/10/peggies-born-tomorrow.html
http://rambos-locker.blogspot.com/2007/10/first-review-of-pegasus.html
Cheers Rambo
#12 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 10:09pm
No, I think the pegasus has too much rocker, which makes it more difficult in the flats - I know because I owned both of them at the same time. Although they are very close, I think were it not for the comfort level, and limitations for bigger people - the hurricane performs better all round - but that is purely my own opinion.
#13 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 10:11pm
I had a hurricane a Peggy then back to a hurricane again. where we paddle its flat and I'm big and can't understand limitations cause Ive always been big. I think what brought me back is that speed.
#14 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 11:00pm
It's only a very small difference though Coconut as the following pics show, but it does effect the glide somewhat.
The rudder, cockpit and iako locations are vastly different though.
Cheers Rambo
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#15 Mon, 04/27/2009 - 11:09pm
Certainly the hurricane has had world sales and it is designed as an all round canoe. Looking purely at sales it maybe the most successful brand out there ?
It is so much more than just design - but the logistics of getting the product to the customer - having a reliable dealer network and having competitive pricing.
Both Hurricane and Outrigger Connection have done this.
Certainly Huki has been very successful designing for the California/ PNW market. Tahitian canoes are designed for their waters as well. Certinaly more and more manufacturers are entering the picture and are being successful.
But I think we will continue to use the Hawaiian market as a marker for new products,
After all it's fun to look at the pictures even if I am stuck in the cold and grey.
#16 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 6:39am
Maybe changing Hurricane could be like Coke in a bottle they changed it and it has never been the same.
#17 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 7:10am
Someone please tell me there's a huge difference between a Hawaiian made Hurricane and one made in China. I have never paddled a Hawaiian Hurricane but recently got on a Chinese Hurricane.
To put it nicely, after the experience with the Chinese made Hurricane, I was very impressed with the build/attention to detail on my V1X.
#18 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 8:32am
Change just for the sake of change has more often than not been a bad idea. When things are changed because new trial designs have clearly enhanced performance then chances are much better that the value of the change will reward the consumer.
On the other hand stagnation is not a good business model. With so many seat complaints I wonder why they have not simply spent some r&d into changing that one feature for starters?
#19 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 8:37am
Thank you paddlers for expressing your differences of opinion, for that's what this site is all about, where we can have fruitful discussions and all benefit from it. Regarding different water conditions, I feel that's what the Molokai race is all about, for it is never the same. Look at the last wind in your face bust your okole race for example: no epic bump riding Hawaiian conditions were around to have fun on. Just the two best paddlers (male & female) on the best all around canoes won. Incredible also, that both canoes came from the same manufacturer. Sorry, but there's no substitute for the Molokai being the best proving ground for one-man canoes.
#20 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 9:12am
One way to look at oc-1 progression is that its strictly economics. Its easy to sell the new-fancy-gotta-have boat. Karel is the master of this, release a new boat people will dump the previous one and buy the new one. It all about the benjamins not finding a faster design.
Look at the Pueo, it seems to be the new gotta have boat (frick I want one, BAD). In my mind, eventually, sales will most likely slow as the market is flooded. Pop out a newer model and people will dump the pueo and buy the new one (at which time I will take advantage of someone selling a second hand one) and sales increase. Then you gotta keep the cycle going.
#21 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 12:08pm
if the hurricane does get changed the sleeves where the iakos slide in should be altered because i have heard of alot of disaster stories where the iakos just slide out of the hull.
#22 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 12:43pm
sometimes progression doesn`t equate to progress in boat design you know.
Lots of boats have come and gone since the Fusion was introduced.
A chinese built Fusion is still the record holder at the east coasts biggest race for oc1s.
2 years ago Karel paddled around Cape Ann in 2:47:10 on a Fusion to win the race and set a new course record.
This is an incredible time on this course where its pretty tough to break 3 hours even on a surfski....
#23 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 1:00pm
That depends on which version as some earlier versions didn't have enough reinforcement in the iako housing. Plus they've got ones with the sleeve lock and ones with the push pin locks.
#24 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 1:25pm
"A chinese built Fusion is still the record holder at the east coasts biggest race for oc1s."
Actually Fuze, I think the wording should be "Karel Jr' is still the record holder at the east coasts biggest race for oc1s."
#25 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 1:27pm
Koacanoe is correct. Interesting that the Scorpius performed well in the flats (PAA 2 day races and Molokai Solo 2007 and 2009) and in your face wind conditions not the usual downwind fun stuff we in Hawaii are fond of and more used to. Canoe performance depends on the motor primarily and weight of the paddler - one can definately be on a canoe that can be too large or too small (if you are 90 kg you won't be as happy on the Pegasus or Hurricane as you would be on a Fusion or Scorpius. But knowing the canoe and where to rig it correctly can make all the difference. Rambo mentioned he at first had a hard time getting the Pegasus to perform in the flats like his Hurricane but got it dialed in after a bit. So there are a number of factors to making a canoe go fast-unfortunately I haven't figured it out very well yet but it is still just wonderful to be on the water and surfing when there is surf. Find the canoe that works for you comfort wise and your paddling style and weight and the conditions you paddle most frequently in - the choices are now there - don't depend on the hype.
#26 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 2:50pm
Great thread,
Koa I can't disagree the Molo is the proving ground for paddlers and boats to be judged: However Coconut is right about conditions we paddle making a huge difference. Making a living on the water I have learned all water-craft have a trade off. With a powerboats If you want fast, you have to give up comfort and range, Sailboat similar, a fast hull will kick you but when going slow. Planing hull verses displacement are a trade off, speed verses comfort and range. Very few hull shapes "will do it all"
Now I am no expert on OC1's but I have had the chance to Demo several boats lately, both on San francisco bay and out in Hawaii, I love my Zephyr but it can be too long for some of the S/F bay short and choppy stuff, My wife's Fuze does better. The Peggy loves that stuff. Took a friends Pahoa out and it did Great in the choppy. Did not like the Hurricane in anything but FLATS!
In Hawaii I demo'd the Pueo, it was awesome catching the small and medium waves but I got my but Kicked in the HUGE stuff( Probably me not the boat) Paddled the flats great and up wind as well. But then I took the Zephyr out in the same conditions and it rocked!! I was able to catch and stay on waves, and Comfortable!! Not so good up wind;-(
The answer, own a couple of boats for the conditions!
Of course, I ordered a Pueo!! Best for all condition( my opinion) And will be looking for a used Fuze or Zephyr when I move out. My wife can paddle the Pueo when its big and I want to go downhill, fast!!
Back to the thread, every boat has its Positive traits, paddle them all in YOUR conditions and make a choice on the type of paddling you will do!!
2 more months!!! Hawaii Kai;-)
Ted
#27 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 3:09pm
good point about the east coast record. i think most people will agree karel could power most any boat to a win in most any conditions. the same could be said for kai or danny or any other of the elite paddlers. the uncanny thing is when a majority of those paddlers on the elite level get on a boat and within 5 minutes say that the boat "works". i'd like to know exactly what they feel that they are able to give an immediate evaluation.
#28 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 5:49pm
I got to ride my friends pueo and take a look at the boat today.Is the canoe softer and more fragile in comparison to the hurricane and pegasus? Maybe it is this way with hand made canoes?
#29 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 6:56pm
strangth co subjective. especially avter goingf to get am MRi with nti anziety drugs so man things to think about. the lay up, cure temp, epozsee used.humididty in aur. not to mentionn the coostumer's suggested lay up. a ultrlight layup will give up a lot of strength. paddleing a 20 pounf bat gves up a ton of strength, i had thought of drinking a beer, but these meds are just fein, maybr you can Mri the soft spots sna find the culprit. all these boats we are are tlalking bout are certainly noe metn to last. although they'll be shillin in the landphill for booka years to come. so love your md your buddies. she is ned or all the treasure we have.here she domes to the sweet sleep/
10 miinutes lter.i relax to the sould. mmory foam is sush sweet bliss again. how iloe her the sweet mistrus. she holds me so dear tonight. i swear not to arrive inn lust again.
best thread fot thecetury. jesis loves the continuity of people lovo=ing people. a those special magnets
#30 Tue, 04/28/2009 - 10:00pm
hu?
#31 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 5:08am
jc
So we've had German, pirate talk, and now drug addled.
Back to the topic. Seems to me that canoe popularity is very regional. Kamanu and OC have Oahu pretty sewn up. Kai's canoes and the Hurricane dominate on Maui. Huki is super strong on the west coast. People for the most part will buy what is easily available.
The canoes that have done the best with wide spread distribution seem to be OC, Hurricane, and I almost hesitate to add Hypr.
So for the hardcore knowledgeable paddler willing to wait for his/her new boat, good design will be the most important factor, but for many/most people plain old availability will be #1.
#32 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 6:03am
and $
#33 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 6:19am
In regards to OC-1 progression, the Molokai solo race is the best place to observe this, for all one has to do is look at the winning times over the last 16 years. The times have really improved since the 1993 (wish I could graph it out). Compared to the surfski, all the improvements and innovation in hull design have occured with the OC-1 for the last 16 years. The 19' 4"surfski which owns the Molokai record has since been retired and been replaced with longer 21' + narrower surfskis that are not as fast or have not been able to beat the record, even when the race has been shortened. Just curious, but which OC-1 owns the Molokai record? And where was the finish line?
#34 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 6:47am
"Huki is super strong on the west coast. "
Not sure which west coast you're referring to. Except for the Huki 2-mans, I could count all the Huki's in a SoCal race on one hand. The starting lines I've seen are almost entirely Kaimanas and Hurricanes. An occasional Pegusus thrown in.
#35 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 7:09am
OK jc09's post is probably the best post ever in the history of ocpaddler. Holy crap. I hope he's got some to share.
#36 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 8:30am
I think Karel Jr. could've set the OC1 record at the Blackburn even if he cut down the greased pole in Gloucester harbor and paddled that to the finish.
When I look at OC1 hull designs, nothing out there is "ahead of its time". These design principles have been proven for decades, maybe even centuries. I'm seeing the same statements about "revolutionary design inventions" among the stand up paddle crowds too. But okay, maybe it's revolutionary to the specific sports.
For flatwater, look at the rowing scull/shell design; that's a hull that has been scrutinized for decades. IMO, the Hurricane capitalizes on this displacement hull design and flat water is more common than downwind so perhaps that's why it's done so well for so long (except for that !#$^% seat). The Zephyr is on the other end of scale with a lot of planing hull characteristics. As more althletes compete at higher level in OC1, the closer to each other they all become in ability, the more important hull choice is for a specific race, since good design is just a myriad of performance compromises. This is what makes talking boats so fun. Enter economics & marketing strategies to equation and you've got new boats coming out every season, each with improving characteristics for a particular condition (ie: long-period small swell, long-period large swell, short-period large swell, cross winds, headwinds, flat water, heavy paddler, light paddler, etc..) and consumers like us feeling the buzz about a new cool design we can paddle with and against our friends. This is an exciting time for OC1. Hurricane, Scorpius, Pueo, Zephyr, Pegasus; I bet if you had identical paddlers with identical seat time in each boat, a different boat would likely win in different conditions, but that's the beauty too of OC1 racing, it's still small enough that a good paddler can do well in any boat. So, buy the boat for your location.
So what's the ultimate all-rounder? Seems to me the Pueo has the latest vote in that category.
#37 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 9:52am
if anyone can tell me what the hell i was trying to say in that last post., please let me know. i've read it a few times and am still pretty lost.
#38 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 1:23pm
Stay lost, its better than being found!!!!;-))
#39 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 4:20pm
this was a great-thred--- i love dis site cause every time i think i have a comment someone beats me toit!!!! So Good on da lot'av'ya--- regards, bob c.
#40 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 5:53pm
Resurecting this thread. Anyone heard word on changes to the Hurricane for 2011? I thought I heard rumours late last year but can't recall where.
#41 Mon, 01/24/2011 - 8:12am
OH yay!! Mahalo for re-opening this post, it was my first time reading it and i thoroughly enjoyed it. So much was discussed, i dont even know where to start.
Clearly the Hurricane is the most successful OC1 to date, with the models lifespan of over a decade and still going... Why is this? Why hasn't Mike updated the design? Well keep in mind that Mike went thru 7 prototypes before feeling confident he was producing the best OC1 he could. He even molded one of them but then went back to the drawing board and didn't produce it. He spent over two years researching and developing the Hurricane before it went to production. 2 YEARS, 7 PROTOTYPES! Even after the production of the Hurricane there have been some changes to manufacturing and the elements on the canoe: foot pedals, cables, iako's sleeves, ect etc. Even now the new Hurricanes come with the rudder moved forward 6 inches to keep it in the water while surfing, but not changing the overall shape of canoe or way it handles in the smaller stuff or flats.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the hurricane's reach is much farther than the Hawaii market, with distribution points all over the world, those markets ocean (or lakes, rivers...ect) conditions have to be kept in mind, as previously stated by: CocOnut. Until I got my Pueo i would still race the Hurricane in flat, or small, races on maui and use the Vantage or Scorpius xm in the surf. Now i feel the Pueo is close enough in the flats, plus more comfortable and with a better turning ability so I race it in the flats. But If i lived somewhere else in the world where there was no down winders, I'd probably have a hurricane only. PS I have an aftermarket seat for the hurricane, a must have item if you're planning on spending much time on it :)
Is it time for a new Hurricane? Nope. I think the Hurricane will continue to sell in regions outside of Hawaii with smaller waters or even in hawaii to smaller paddlers and novices.
Is it time for Mike to make a new boat and stay on the cutting edge of OC1 design? Yes and it is already in the works. For the close to the past two years Mike has been working on a new model. Not re-defining the hurricane, a completely new model. One for the surf. Being the mad scientist he is, he's already a few prototypes in and has a new one on the way. I've seen him out doing maliko's with a camera rigged up on it so he could later go back to the lab and watch exactly whats happening with the waterline, entry angel, ama, ect ect. Each time he has the camera in a different place, taking new data. I paddled the current prototype on Friday, during my second maliko run of the day. My time was 1 minute slower than my first run on my Pueo. His new OC1 is like no OC1 I've paddled before. I was amazed how I would just power through stuff i thought i wouldn't make it thru. Its a very stable canoe and is slower to react when you hit the pedal. It also seemed to take alot of work to get it going, but once I did... it kept going. Would i sell my Pueo or Scorpius Xm to buy it? Nope. It's not there yet, and Mike obviously knows it, since he has a new prototype coming. I can't wait to see what the next one feels like.
I'll sum this up so that "PaddleLeaks" doesn't need to do it for me :)
I really appreciate the commitment and dedication of a builder who takes the time to research and develop a canoe, making sure it performs the best they think it can before putting it into production. Not simply putting out the "next big thing" only to redesign it 6 months to a year later. We've seen this over and over again with a few builders over the past couple of years. I think its good to constantly be innovating and developing, but i wonder if they put a lil more effort into the research/development and test stages the first time, would they need to make a new canoe less than a year later with such minor changes? Do I think when Mike comes to the final model it will be a canoe I'll buy? Yes. I'm confident with his level of commitment and attention to details he won't put out a canoe that he's not 100% satisfied with. After all, he has alot at stake... How do you follow up a model like the hurricane that has been selling for so long?!!!
#42 Tue, 02/01/2011 - 11:10am
Hi Tim,
Thanks for that open and honest synopsis ... all good..
aloha,
pog
#43 Mon, 01/24/2011 - 9:30pm
And please, don't forget the Makani, a basic, simple and very swift canoe. One of my all time favorites.
#44 Tue, 01/25/2011 - 4:31pm
Hi Tim,
I´m interested on this aftermarket Hurricane seat. Where do I found it?
Aloha,
Alex
#45 Mon, 01/31/2011 - 6:33am
Hello
I got one from Kai Wa'a i just love also Huki makes one
http://www.kaiwaa.com/parts.html
http://www.huki.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=13&prod...
#46 Wed, 02/02/2011 - 6:53pm
I originally posted this thread with the intent of offering "props" to Mike for his development of the Hurricane and being able to still be a boat that matters with only small improvements. In the years that followed the Hurricane's introduction, other builders have made many boats. Thanks, mauitim, for pointing out what the intent of my question/statement was..."I really appreciate the commitment and dedication of a builder who takes the time to research and develop a canoe, making sure it performs the best they think it can before putting it into production. Not simply putting out the "next big thing" only to redesign it 6 months to a year later. We've seen this over and over again with a few builders over the past couple of years. I think its good to constantly be innovating and developing, but i wonder if they put a lil more effort into the research/development and test stages the first time, would they need to make a new canoe less than a year later with such minor changes?" (mauitim quote)......I simply am applauding Mike for his due diligence and patience...I've seen the prototype in action and can't wait to see the finished product of his next OC1.
#47 Sun, 02/06/2011 - 2:26pm
Yep on that.
aloha,
pog
#48 Sun, 02/06/2011 - 9:34pm
Wow! This thread has been helpful to me now as I'm currently deciding between a Hurricane versus Pegasus both in used condition. Especially helpful were the pictures on 4/27/2009 by Rambo comparing the Pegasus and Hurricane literally side by side. Real nice visual to show the comparison between the Pegasus and Hurricane. Maybe more comparisons like this should be included in future non-commercial/non-retail motivated comparisons. This forum offers a nice resource for exactly this kind of discussion from a wide variety of sources. So just a Big Mahalo for the 411.
P.S. I remember when we lived in Illinois and had a nice big, long enclosed garage like the one in the pictures with the "unfinished" drywall look able to store canoes parallel to the wall lengthwise. A fair number of people, like me, in Hawaii don't have that kind of enclosed garage length/depth and have to park their cars outside the garage with the canoes stored diagonally parked in the garage.
#49 Thu, 08/09/2012 - 8:58am
Nakana,test the Pegasus before you buy.It's very tippy,huli very easy on downwinders.Everyone I know who has paddled one says the same.But if you only going to use in flat conditions,no problem.
#50 Thu, 08/09/2012 - 4:35pm
Ok will do. How about the Hurricane and downwind runs chance of huli?
#51 Thu, 08/09/2012 - 4:44pm
Lots of new canoes out there since this thread started. I just go the Scorpius XS, it works great in both flat and waves. Less rocker than the xm. I weigh 170# so it works well.
#52 Fri, 08/10/2012 - 3:41am