Has any one seen this canoe in action? Huki is calling it a one man "Dragon Boat". I find it weird but oddly intriguing....maybe a better fishing rig with more applications to haul stuff around...What do you guys think?
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Submitted by Sloughcanoe on Wed, 04/29/2009 - 5:11pm
There's some details on the blog
http://rambos-locker.blogspot.com/2008/08/another-surkski-oc1-with-wings...
http://rambos-locker.blogspot.com/2008/07/skioc-ocski-it-had-to-happen.html
Cheers Rambo
#1 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 5:57pm
Yes, I have seen these "in action" on many occasions here in the flat waters of Northern California. The wing is used as a stability devise for a surf ski. It appears to follow the design of a sleek one-man sailing canoe that was featured in an article a number of years ago. For a one-man sailing canoe, the idea works. For a surf ski, based upon my observations, I don't think so. It may however, be a nice feature for an adaptive paddler. I believe the cost for the wing is about $800 US dollars?
Most paddlers I see using this devise, are tipping side to side, even relatively experienced surf ski paddlers. It has been very apparent with the tandem model. And of course, when the pontoon tips and hits the water, the pontoon increases drag, slowing the canoe. Arguably, a really good paddler can likely balance the "wing"; but of course a really good paddler likely doesn't need the wing, in addition to the fact that the wing increases weight, and increases drag in a head wind. And too, there does not appear to be a good accommodation for the weight of the paddler(s). If one looks at the image associated with the first post in this thread, it is apparent that BOTH pontoons are DRAGGING in the water at the same time, and that's on flat water with an average size guy. What happens with a heavier paddler, and what happens as the conditions change from flat water to chop?
I have not tried the wing personally; I have just observed others using it on many occasions. It will be interesting to see if my observations match the experiences of those that have actually paddled the "wing".
BTW: "Dragonboat" is a better sales term than is: "surf ski with training wheels?
#2 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 7:04pm
Look better, it's no surfski... the seat is the same seat than that of an OC1. If you remove the wings you can not paddle it as a ski, and you sit so high that I believe it can't be paddled without the wings...
#3 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 8:06pm
The picture on my blog is a surfski with wings, Jude must make both types. He also has a high foam seat that fits into the bucket of the ski to give the OC1 seat height.
R
#4 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 8:18pm
Check his website... what he calls a dragonboat is definitely not a ski.
#5 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 8:24pm
It looks like something I wouldnt want my friends to see me paddling!
#6 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 8:28pm
O.K. Jude, the words out and it was not me ! : )
This is not a surfski or a stock oc with the Gullwing ... its an entirely new design.
If you really want to know the full, REAL story behind it and its performance call Jude @ Huki.
aloha,
pog
#7 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 8:37pm
Yep, Hiro your right it, it is new, at least in name anyway. I guess it's for dragon boaters to train on, but the legs are at the wrong angle for DB.
#8 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 8:49pm
Hiro,
Technically, I think you are right; it depends on the image. The first image is of a Huki OC1 with a wing instead of an ama. So yes, I do believe his use of the term "dragonboat" refers to the OC1 with a wing. However, if you look at the images posted by Rambo.... there is no question but that these are surfskis with wings, and that is the configuration that shows up most of the time.
http://rambos-locker.blogspot.com/2008/08/another-surkski-oc1-with-wings...
So, would there be a market for a "Dragon Boat"? Dragging three hulls through the water does not appear to be efficient? Think?
#9 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 8:51pm
Again, check his website... Jude sells wings for ski, and he sells a "dragonboat" wich is a different craft, it's not a ski.
#10 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 8:56pm
Judes Website has heaps of pics
http://www.huki.com/index.php?page=D1-X
R
#11 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 8:57pm
Talk about a flat water only boat. Looks cool though.
#12 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 9:19pm
I vote for calling them training wheels. And if you paddle it with a single blade paddle: it is a canoe, or if you paddle it with a double bladed paddle it is a kayak?
#13 Wed, 04/29/2009 - 11:39pm
how bout weight belts instead of training wheels
#14 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 12:15am
Seriously, will you be levitating?
#15 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 12:19am
The Dragon boat is just a simple way for the dragon boat paddler to workout. If one only paddles on one side as do the paddlers on a dragon boat, this would allow the paddler to design his/her workouts. Whether the paddler(s) takes advantage of this new boat is the question, but it's available if they want it. We had a club member race this canoe using a wing paddle, but since Jude makes wings for surkiis, which I've paddled, this boat is just another option.
#16 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 3:07am
In whitewater at least, there's no distinction between the boat shape/design for a kayak and a canoe, it's the type of paddle you use. I.e. a C1 whitewater boat is often just a kayak that's been setup so you're kneeling instead of sitting and is paddled with a beefy canoe paddle.
Not sure what the benefit of the wing is for dragon boaters over a standard OC-1 or V-1…
#17 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 3:09am
I know the Huki website says it's fast.....has there been an objective test done on what it's speed is in comparison to an OC or Surfski....even a run of the mill marathon canoe? I am going to assume that it would track better than a straight up marathon canoe........but is there a rudder on the thing? Can foil's be attached to the wings...to create less drag? ....but then...why can't you put to the "gull wing" on with only foils in the water.....(could caus problems with your stroke I suppose. Too many unanswered questions.....what I do like is that Huki is trying to make something new......looks like something I'd see on a Popular Science/Mechanics magazine when I was a kid. Anyways...if anyone's done some comparisons on the water I'd like to know...(not that I'm gonna buy one)...just curious.
#18 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 5:17am
The Dragon boat canoe has a rudder, it has a purpose, and with the many dragon boat paddlers in the Bay Area, there is a need. It would interesting to get a dragon boat paddler to respond to its advantages/disadvantages so we can move on.
#19 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 6:00am
The Gullwings are adaptable to any hull, so you can order OC-1 with this option and one day just head for the lake, leaving your ama and iakos behind.
#20 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 6:43am
Sensitive subject, apparently... At least HUKI knows he's got some online defenders.
#21 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 6:47am
using an OC-1 for dragon boaters can be at a huge disadvantage, Because they only paddle one side, The single ama either drags more or less, depending on skill, If you look back at the picture of the Roto molded boat, rigged on both left and right, I am almost certain the guys paddling are doing time trials with Dragon boat paddles.
Also keep in mind the Dragon boat world has a lot more paddlers that may not be as comfortable on a boat that may time them in the water, The sport is also very big in areas that the water never gets above 50.
Remember this is a boat designed for Dragon Boat paddlers NOT OCPaddlers.
Jude is far more innovative as a designer than he is being given credit, We as six man paddlers used the OC-1 to train for OC-6, The seating and stroke is different for sure, But paddling an OC-1 Still makes us faster. The same will be true for this boat and the Dragon boaters.
#22 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 7:07am
The design clearly points to the future. The wing is a wing and it actually is meant to fly. At about 6 mph the rear lifts of the water and the yet to be revealed hydro foil under the bow kicks in and keeps it from flying away. The foil had to be added to comply with FAA rules prohibiting man-powered craft from reaching more then 100 feet of altitude. Cutting edge I say! Personally I'd like to see some ailerons on the wings to carve gentle turns in the breeze.
Initially you paddle it and once you have your rear airborne you "flapple" it. That's flying and paddling combined.
Let's go flapple!
#23 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 7:16am
But how do you float the ama? Or is it amas?
#24 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 7:20am
It's obviously not an OC1 or a surfski... so why not just accept the label for what it is? jude named it dragon boat (a DB1?)... why compare it to a OC1 or surfski?. If it's a pig, then it'll probably die with flu like symptoms.
He may have created a whole new class of boat. smart man, saw a market and scooped it.
#25 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 7:30am
Too much Painteur, I'm on the floor laughing my fried rice breakfast from Rainbows out of my guts. Really appreciate and enjoy your literary style.
#26 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 8:56am
cool concept. there's probably a bigger market for that boat than there is for OC-1's world wide. where is dragon boating from? china? you've just entered a target market with over a billion people. good thinking Huki!
once, when i was a teenager, a frustrated co-worker told me to "get your Dick Beaters off the damn thing." since then when I see the D.B. designation I kinda chuckle and think it refers to dick beaters.
#27 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 9:17am
I'm actually seriously thinking this would be a fantastic video shooting platform. If i could adapt an electric motor driven prop to propel it to about 9MPH and rudder controlled by a driver/videographer, how smooth would that be and you could get right up close to the action. and no chance of a huli.
R
#28 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 12:25pm
I oversee about 100+ one-person dragon boat tests back in Philly every year. Although I have not spoken to Jude/Huki about this new design, I may at least give you my thoughts concerning what we do and how such a new boat could be of help.
My club does not own any of these Dragon Boat OC1's. Currently, we use an OC1 that is capable of being configured with the amma on the "Left" or on the "Right". Yes; I know it's odd, not traditional, but Philly is a city where an amma on the left or right side of a canoe is not an issue. And Huki just so happens to make an OC with such a design. My club has purchase several of them (i believe it's the Stealth). Anyway, we test on a canal. If an athlete is testing for a right sided seat in a DB (dragon boat) then you test in a right-side OC1. If you are testing for a left sided seat then you test in a traditional left-side OC1. What is the advantage for doing this? It keeps most non-outrigger paddlers (ie. Dragon boat paddlers who only have unlimited time in a dragon boat and limited time in a OC) from flipping. When we test we only allow the athlete to paddle on the side they are testing on. Via experience, we know that many non-OC paddlers will flip a canoe if they paddle on the side opposite of the canoe (yes; most of them do not know how to brace or use their paddle as a mini-amma).
Conclusion - Huki's new design now allows my club to buy a few DB OC's hulls and test everyone in the same boat and not hear any athletes complain they are unstable in the boat. Because there is an amma on both sides it eliminates the flipping issue/increases stability
There will always be the issue of paddler weight and drag. Obviously, the heaver the guy/gal the more drag.
I don't see us running out to go buy one yet. We have a solid fleet of new and used OC’s. But if were in the market for a new testing canoe we may go with this for reasons stated in the conclusion.
Also, I agree with Chris (ocean ohana) ... this would be a good boat for safety in the Northeast USA where temperatures drop well below 30 in the winter. A cold swim on a cold day can be hazardous.
Funny story to finish off: I spend a few hundred hours a year in an OC1. I’ve been seen racing the CA and HI OC1 and OC6 circuits the past couple years. So, last year I go and do “my” right sided dragon boat test in a right sided amma/OC1. Typically, when I’m tired, in a traditionally configured OC1, I will lean on my iaku after a sprint piece. What do I do after I finish my 500 meter test in a right sided OC1??? I leaned/reached left …. You know the rest of the story ... the iaku was on the right …. Splash. Hope you enjoyed a laugh on my expense. Yes; I will only be seen in a right-side amma OC1 once a year for a test.
#29 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 12:57pm
So you like the ama both ways
#30 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 2:00pm
Wait, you mean a person is only going to paddle on one side the entire season? Doesn't that, well, make you look sort of funny and stuff?
If I'm going to paddle someplace where the water never gets above 50 I'm going to follow a little indigenous wisdom and go with a kayak.
#31 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 3:34pm
a little indigenous wisdom and go with a kayak.
Huh?
Compare to OC-1 or even a surfski kayak is a death trap,
especially in cold water.
#32 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 4:12pm
Learn to roll, there's a reason that Inuit don't have open decked boats.
#33 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 4:57pm
The questions about this canoe have been answered, and the purpose has been explain, and we can all agree that Jude has designed a boat to meet the need. Rather than digress into something well off of the subject, can we agree that there is a place for the canoe and move on. The Canoe will work for those who need it, and for the rest of us, we can paddle our brains off on the boat/canoe of our choosing. Pray that it sells because that helps all of us by having our manufacturers working toward a better product.
#34 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 6:16pm
Yeah everyone - that's enough! Altman and his team are DONE with this subject, and you should be too.
I was done with it after looking at the photo in the very first post...
#35 Thu, 04/30/2009 - 7:36pm
I thought it was tea-malt-man, or someone who loves tea-malts, whatever they are. BTW, Bragon Boating, or DBing is very gay.
#36 Fri, 05/01/2009 - 7:30am
Although, some of us are done with this thread....so they can go back talking about "race results", "Whose the top paddler" or "What is the best canoe". All threads are connected.....they go back to trying to make us go faster.... I believe Huki is on the right track on trying to develop something "new" (at least I think it's new)...as all canoe builders are trying to make us faster by introducing the latest in new technology or going back to tried and true designs and updating them. the DB-1 opens up a few doors in terms of ideas.
because of the wing shape and the elongated hull why can't the length of the main hull be shorted and the dual amas be made longer and sit underneath the water. Where as the amas design would concentrate on it's underwater design (like that of the new hulls on the tahitian v-6) ? It'd look kind of weird,...kind of like a tri-canoe. Any boat designers out there want to expound on why it shouldn't be done (other than it'd look pretty funny) or if it has been done? I'll try to draw up a pic at some point an post it...and see what some one says...if not get a good verbal punching on how stupid it looks!
#37 Sat, 05/02/2009 - 6:04am
My God.... if they only had chines... then you would really have something!!
#38 Sat, 05/02/2009 - 10:20am
I think your right Slough canoe, you have to give it to Jude for getting out on a limb there and letting it hang out. I met him once. great guy,, great guy. I think the reason canoe as a sport in general is smaller is the fear of the water. and this could help to answer that problem. I would even venture to say it would be good for Adaptive racing.
#39 Sat, 05/02/2009 - 3:41pm
Rambo .. this is what you need for shooting ! i have a video & this thing flys ... not sure about the surfing ability though ! .. Harv
#40 Sat, 05/02/2009 - 4:29pm
Yep that's one fast Pahoa Harv, the video is here
http://blip.tv/file/1714227
Still likely to huli though
Ramboscie
#41 Sat, 05/02/2009 - 4:40pm
Isn't that the same Yellow Peril that paddled 404km on the Murray River Cecil? I tell you what, he wasn't going that fast when he had to do over 70km a day!
Pretty sure he ditched it for a trimaran version.
#42 Mon, 05/04/2009 - 12:36am
He went back to the Pahoa again, the trimaran model floated completely under water like a piercing hull but any bumps on the water and it started to head to the bottom of the lake.
R
#43 Mon, 05/04/2009 - 1:46am