Hi All,
I had a question about the catch. This has probably been discussed here many times but I was experimenting on the OC-1 with my catch and the intuitive thing would be to think that the harder you pull on each stroke the faster the boat goes, proving the entry is clean and the catch solid. But sometimes when I pull at 100% effort the paddle just seems to slip and I see a lot of bubbles even if I am really careful with getting my blade fully submerged before I start pulling.
So the question is, is there a point of power application to a certain blade size that becomes a waste of strength? In that case, to go faster is it better to use apply less power per stroke to prevent slippage but just go at a faster rate? This is especially apparent on smaller blades like a dragonboat blade because the smaller blade has less a grip on the water I assume.
Thanks in advance for the help.
Submitted by tsuinami on Thu, 05/21/2009 - 9:42am
It's interesting how you worded your question, as the answer is embedded. Clean entry, clean stroke, finish what you started. A chain is a strong as its weakest link, so in the stroke, from plant to recovery.
I like to think that water is an element that you must bend to make work, work with it not against it, if you rush -it breaks, no more "connection".
It all circles back to the way the kupuna have been teaching from the beginning. Over analysis and scientific breakdowns can be confusing.
Like hiro has in his signature, from Bruce Lee "be water, my friend'.
#1 Thu, 05/21/2009 - 10:23am
tsuinami,
IMHO ( isolating only blade here for discussion ) I think you need to go to a bigger blade.
If you feel like you are doing everything 'right' but the blade is slipping you could very well be just ripping it too much for the bite it can hold. So going to a bigger blade might actually be easier for you rather than hurling yourself into a smaller blade.
Not one that will bog your cadence down though.
my .02
pog
#2 Thu, 05/21/2009 - 11:21am
tsuinami,
maybe if you break it down, try thinking it in terms of pulling the boat past the paddle. a friend told me to think of the paddle being stuck in the mud and you are pulling/sliding yourself past it. the paddle did not move but you brought yourself past it with your big muscles (back & legs) with hip drive. bubbles and cavitating means youre spinning your wheels.
#3 Thu, 05/21/2009 - 12:36pm
All great tips guy. I understand the part about pulling your boat past your blade, but at the end of the day you're still using the same muscles whether you are pulling your body past your blade or doing the wrong thing by pulling the blade towards your body arent you? I am observing this behavior the most with the dragonboat blade (while practicing for fitness tests). I try to get the paddle as deep in as my body/paddle will allow but what else is there in the catch that I am missing to prevent me from getting that solid catch?
#4 Fri, 05/22/2009 - 2:31am
tsuinami,
I would argue that you don't use same muscles when thinking about it either way. Goofy as it sounds, you're still doing the same thing but different muscles are recruited by thinking about pulling yourself past paddle or pulling paddle through water. I find that when I think of pulling boat to paddle more of my lower core muscles engage; that I sort of get my whole body into it rather than mostly upper body. However, it's a subtle difference, not a huge one.
When you get slippage, is the whole blade in the water and did you enter the blade from the side (slice), thus minimizing the air the blade takes down with it? When I do it right, there is no sound (plunk/splash) on blade entry/pull/exit. I'll slice in and slice out, tracing a 'D' pattern. That is of course, when I'm doing it right...about every millionth stroke.
#5 Fri, 05/22/2009 - 4:54am
IMHO, I have found that one of the problems paddlers have with catch is not getting the blade in with a forward angle (Bottom hand further forward than the top hand) at the catch. Get the blade in with a forward angle and then pull down and back engaging your core and lats. This should make it harder for you to rip through the water.
(The Johnny P and Danny C video's that are out on the web are great for showing the proper movements)
#6 Fri, 05/22/2009 - 5:26am
If you set your blade as you said, the only time you will slip is when you over pull over over accelerate your paddle. For dragon boats this is no that difficult since the paddles have such little surface area and the boats weight so much (especially with 20 people in them). Remember that each stroke you want to accelerate the boat a little bit more. So think about taking 3-6 strokes to get going not 1.
As for pulling yourself passed the blade this is an analogy to help you better understand how to set your paddle. If you approach a problem from a different angle you can find new ways of solving the same problem. This is one way to approach the catch.
#7 Fri, 05/22/2009 - 6:39am
Awesome thread and great inputs -
The gist of all the comments made sums up the importants of being able to feel what the blade is doing once it enters the water rather just hammering down and releasing wasted energy with each stroke. This is magnified in a OC-6 where every one is applying power at different times with different catch entry angles with different stroke lengths with different speed of acceleration in the water, as opposed to six paddlers paddling as one with the ocean. Feel the spirit of the ocean come alive with every stroke as you come to harmony with your canoe, crew and the ocean. Over power and the water fights back.
I like Joe's point about Hiro's sig - "Be Water, My Friend"
Omnopaddle's comment adds to that - "ripping it too much"
Nalunutz - "paddle did not move but you brought yourself past it"
Chineboy - "I sort of get my whole body into it rather than mostly upper body."
Huligan - "getting the blade in with a forward angle (Bottom hand further forward than the top hand) at the catch. Get the blade in with a forward angle and then pull down and back engaging your core and lats."
Danny - "the only time you will slip is when you over pull over over accelerate your paddle. ... Remember that each stroke you want to accelerate the boat a little bit more. So think about taking 3-6 strokes to get going not 1."
#8 Fri, 05/22/2009 - 11:22am
To add to all those - check out what your top arm is doing as you're going thru your stroke motion
#9 Fri, 05/22/2009 - 11:31am
mahalo to you all, i really enjoyed thi one
just want to add my 2 cents:
FINESS (is that how should be spelled?)
when i first started paddling my OC-1 i used to get smoked by my friends at my club, i try, harder, nothing, one day, super glassy day i decided just to walk.....i mean, catch and bring my boat pass the entry..belive me when i tell you a nice glide surprise me big time.....from then on, the Sky is the limit......and this is exactly why we are so hook, the GLIDE!!
and all that comes with it.
Finess'em bu.
#10 Fri, 05/22/2009 - 11:45am
paddling is such a challenging sport, surfing meets marathon meets golf... gotta love it.
Here is that clip from danny and johnnie, great one to revisit
http://outriggercanoe.blogspot.com/search?q=ching
shoots guys, have a great weekend...
#11 Fri, 05/22/2009 - 6:20pm
Very good thread!
now, SOmething a little different....
COuld anyone also give some insights into stroke rate and glide?
How much glide should we aim for vs stroke rate? (to maximise glide, we do good stroke and slow down recovery?)
And all things being equal, if we could sustain a high stroke rate, would not a higher stroke rate mean a faster boat??
Assuming the water is flat.
I believe in chops/surf, it is a different ball game (?)
thanks -- from a novicepaddler!
#12 Fri, 05/22/2009 - 10:37pm
Fly,
Probably best to start a new thread for this, though I'll take a stab at it.
I think of two principals when paddling:
Assuming OC1 paddling on the flats.
Above is a big range, but what I've observed is that much variation among paddlers of similar top speeds. Lightweight duracell men are in the 70's and fast, heavyweight clydestales are in the 50's and just as fast.
Probably good to make a 4-mile time-trial course and play with it, finding what fits. Do a TT at 70, 60, & 50 (or a few rounds of each to rule out variation).
I left out stroke length...that's best for yet another thread...
#13 Sat, 05/23/2009 - 5:54am
www.thestoryofstuff.com
Hi Chineboy
thanks! i will start a new thread but i think what you said must be true -- those big vs small guys. Depending on the type of paddlers!
I think the other thing that woul definitely help is a GPS!
#14 Sat, 05/23/2009 - 5:58am
Thanks for all the comments guys. Really appreciate it. I was referring more to paddling on the flats since there are a lot more factors coming in when we get into other water conditions and I just wanted to keep it simple in terms of the amount of boat speed/glide attained with a certain amount of power application.
Also, the talk about accelerating the blade during the stroke. So I'm guessing adding more power throughout the stroke would probably produce less "slipping" than trying to go buck wild right from the catch? Maybe I already know the answer but am just not sure.
Another question is does the whole situation change when doing a short distance sprint? What about the start? By short distance I mean like 500m, 1000m, etc.
#15 Sat, 05/23/2009 - 12:02pm
Mariano you right about "finess'em" Finesse is the perfect word for describe how you were able to get that "nice glide" with your stroke. What you found out at the catch, during that "super glassy day, was that the water just didn't automatically start moving backwards when the paddle came in contact with it. Instead, the water hesitated for a moment (inertia) and then started to move backwards (slippage). With finesse (or feel of the water), you found out that you could prolong that period of hesitation (propulsive phase) and really extend the glide of the canoe.
#16 Sun, 05/24/2009 - 12:05am
Right on Koacanoe,
its funny how hard is to put in words what we do by heart, and there is no better way than your quote" FEEL OF THE WATER". i like that, since its all about being concius about everylittle thing and doing it just on the money. no less, no more than needed.
i like to think that the entry of my stroke is at CERO POWER, and very smothly i encrease (Jesus my spelling for sure is bad) my power giving my hardest right before the release because i feel my boat up and gliding allready......
thats why on that day, i recall a good felling of me moving in slow motion while my boat went off to very very faster glide.
LESS IS MORE, and all those analogies mentioned by the experts and champions started to make a lot of sense, and everyday i learn a bit more, and this is why this is an ART that takes a good amount of time to MASTER.
Like JIM said in another thread "You have to learn how to paddle, before you can learn how to paddle fast."
mahalo once again to all the feedbacks cause we all learn together, even if we on differents side of the planet....
Aloha from Argentina Gange!!
Mariano.
#17 Sun, 05/24/2009 - 6:11am
Mariano: In the old days, when only "long boats" existed, the manufacturer of those boats, Walter (the original pioneer of one-mans in Hawaii), would always win using a very narrow 8 inch wide Black Bart carbon paddle. When asked about his technique, his answer was very simple: "STILL WATER."
#18 Sun, 05/24/2009 - 8:23am