Lanikila got tired of winning mens race without any challenges so they decided to have fun and some of their paddlers raced coed in one race earlier, no can race two races same day.
That makes perfect sense. DQ the guys that won the race because they decided to paddle an extra race instead of sitting around the beach talking about paddling.
I'm no Bill Gates but having rules that discourage race participation is probably not a very good long term growth strategy for a race organization.
I can understand Lanakila wanting to test themselves by over loading themselves under pressure.
I also admire that they want to support local races by participation.
if they have enough energy for two races, you can make the argument that they didn't paddle hard enough in the first race?
on another note, although these paddlers may be fit enough to do both races, the rules are in place to protect paddlers that may not be fit enough but still try and do both.
Rules are rules, it is not up to the paddlers to choose which we want to follow, There is an opportunity every year to challenge/change any rules.
I gotta agree with Ohana even though I think this particular rule is lame. SCORA has an open review of all race rules every year. Any club can enter a proposal to have any changes/additions/addendums they deem necessary to any of the rules be voted on by the other clubs. If the rule is stifling to participation, it's an easy fix.
Besides it's bad enough having these guys whip our @$$es every week, now they have to double-up and really make it embarrassing?
I can't say I agree. No one seems to have a problem with people doing the short course and the long course during the winter season one man/ski races. In fact, some races have a special division to encourage this. If safety was such a issue, you would have seen issues there first where someone doesn't have a crew to carry them if they get tired. To my knowledge, there's never been a safety problem with the people doing both the long and short course at those races. Let's face it. The people who this might be a safety issue work hard to finish one race, which I'm not trying to knock. They get what they are looking for when they show up to race, which is great. They're not interested in doing both races.
From my experience, the people doing both races fall into three categories. They jump in another crew that is short people, which allows that crew to race. They want to get two workouts after they've driven several hours each way and dedicated a whole day (or several) to travel and race, which is the norm in California. Finally, you have people that are genuinely stoked to paddle and would rather spend their time on the water instead of waiting on the beach to race. These are not mutually exclusive.
I'm not saying that doing both races is right for everyone. Just about everyone does one race and has a great time, which is the point. I just don't see a single reason why an organization with the following mission statement,
"...dedicated to the perpetuation of outrigger canoe racing both regionally in Southern California and worldwide, and to further maintain the rich Pacific island culture and traditions that are rooted in the sport."
would have a rule to discourage people from paddling more, if that is what they choose.
I also need to agree with Ocean Ohana and Six Asone.
First a note: We as an organization may need to evaluate the relevance of this rule next year. And submit new proposals. There is a forum in place to challenge race rules.
But, I need to add a point: this rule is more than safety driven. It is also to discourage clubs from fielding super all-star teams and sweeping divisions. (my impression) This particular situation is not in the same spirit as "we need one more paddler in order to race". If that is what Lanakila did ... then that is an admirable situation. But, they didn't ... they put together these crews in order to sweep divisions at Iron champs. And that spirit of racing SCORA is trying to discourage.
(Everyone is going to hate me for stating the above. If this was not Lanakila's intentions ... my deepest apologies.)
I do think this racing scenario discourages competitors opposed to appeal to the few who desire a 2-race challenge. If it becomes obvious that the same crew is going to win all the races ... there is little incentive (ie: fewer medals) for other crews to go after. (Thus the sport becomes very elite ... and only the elite will be motivated and remain.)
This discussion is really a compliment to Lanakila. If you weren't so dang dominate ... your double race tactic would go unnoticed.
To be truthful I do think California teams are really behind the curve in outrigger and we need to find ways to bring the level of competition in SCORA up without, pushing the other competitors who are here for the spirit of the sport down.
The spirit award given on Saturday was a great first step!!
I have a point regarding money and extra boats in larger clubs ... but, I think I have stoked the fire enough today. :)
The race above was the last iron distance race of the SCORA season. The long course races (or 'Open' divisions) usually run between 10-14 miles, depending on conditions. The women and coed (usually all coed divisions) run first followed by the men in the afternoon.
"What makes Lanakila canoe club a level higher than the rest of the state?" I could recite some of the snarkier speculations often heard on the beach after races, but Danny, Josh, and others who paddle for Lanakila who post here from time to time could better explain it.
Keep in mind, paddling is not California's state sport nor does it have specific cultural relevance here. I think the clubs that do well have found a way to make paddling relevant to local athletes. (The choice of the word 'athlete' should be noted.) To grow the sport in SoCal we have to figure out how to entice and involve a different demographic than found in Hawaii.
Lanakila found a way to make it work here. Doesn't always sit well with everybody how they may or may not have done it. As soon as my club can sweep all divisions, I'm sure we'll be less fussy about it.
Having paddled in various places and associations, all points above come valid. Very familiar with the Cali rules and makes a lot of sense to those that paddle in Cali and have always paddled in Cali. For those of us that live and breathe paddling in our islands, have a different take on things especially with how we feel about our own State Sport. Not to mention the beautiful waters we have to paddle in.
Now, rules are rules and if you break them, you pay. If lanakila wanted to just paddle and get the extra workout, then they should and not cross the finish line and have the score reps take down a boat number and then have to DQ them after. The rule is for divisions to accumulate points for their club ultimately earning an award at the end of the Ironman season. To stack divisions becomes unfair for those clubs that don't carry the numbers (paddlers) or in some teams cases "athletes" have the ability to stack for points.
Lanakila is good for two reasons, 1) Danny Ching and the 2) men that Danny recruits. With this in mind, Lanakila is not a racing "club" but a racing team...no different from, Team Quiksilver, Team Cal, Team New Zealand, PA'A, Team Bradley, etc. Now, a true racing club would be (Oahu) Lanikai, Hui Lanakila, Hui Nalu, Waikiki Beach Boys, Outrigger, Kailua, etc (Maui) Hawaiian OCC, (Cali) Dana, Imua, Kai Elua, Marina, Oceanside, NAC just the ones that are known for solid men's programs.
Lanakila will always be the Cali team to represent Cali for Danny has the ability to recruit or the ability to pic and choose who he wants to paddle for his team...in some cases, olympic athletes. Not your traditional club...believe me, there are guys who wish they can paddle for him and those that don't care to because of their loyalty to their own. The boys that leave their club to paddle for the fastest team...good for you but no forget where you come from.
As for Six as One, if you new a lil about Cali paddling all the clubs i've seen do have cultural relevance. You must be new to the sport because if you start paddling in any area in the world, it begins or began with someone from the islands - cultural relevance. You still call an ama, "ama" right? You don't call it a floatation device. Everywhere in the world where there is paddling has cultural relevance regardless of outrigging's origin. Everytime you sit in a canoe, you became relevant. When your paddle hits the water and you pull your canoe forward, its relevant. Its because of our Polynesian cultures that make outrigging relevant. So Bra, whether you like it or not, it's relevant in the most Cultural way.
If you have "fussy" in your club, a braddah told me, maybe da grumbling is not because of losing, because of da same ol #%$@. Maybe you boys need change...ask Obama!
as dominant as lanakila has been for a long time, they have club members across the athletic spectrum, so i think that the statement that they are not a club in a traditional sense is incorrect. they most definitely are a club...
they do have guys on their top crew who are from different locations and someone else who knows better can explain how they work out the paddletics of that scenario.. as far as recruiting from outside, you need success to attract talent, right?
it's not brain surgery, when you look at the entries of the oc1 races in winter, and their club affiliations, it's not hard to figure out who is going to field strong crews in summer.
if someone is dominating, it just means that as a competing club we have to step our game up- recruit better athletes, train our novices well, keep people in the program, more water time, more water time... no bitching allowed if you or your fellow club members aren't training as hard as the guys who are dominating.
nearly every elite paddling crew has athletes from various clubs. i think the one exception that comes to my mind is Lanikai.
nothing wrong with that, it's just how things work. most any elite crew that claims all it's paddlers started at their current club has probably got their facts a bit confused.
Shoots, maybe I wasn't clear in what I was saying. Having people enjoy the cultural aspects of paddling is different than having cultural relevance to someone of different ethnic or geographic heritage. Yes, the majority (not all mind you) of the SoCal clubs were started by proud Polynesians bringing an aspect of their heritage to their new homes.
In Hawaii, Tahiti, New Zealand, etc. paddling is integral to the history of the people that live there. I would image pride in oneself and in ones heritage is a significant motivating factor for participating in outrigger in any areas where Polynesian people or the history of those people reside en masse. But I doubt that's what draws some of the Olympic athletes you mentioned (with the exception of the Dolan Bros) to paddle for clubs (or teams as you say). Cultural relevance probably isn't the drawing factor for the K1/C1 paddlers training down in Chula Vista. Seems like winning makes outrigger relevant to them.
dacho and jc9_0 are spot on. Success breeds success. No sour grapes about that. That's what we aspire to.
Actually, jc9, Lanikai's success has brought many guys there who wouldn't have paddled for Lanikai if they weren't already succesful. The hard work of the inner corps brought the initial success, but it's been added to over the years w/ a steady flow of (relatively) outside talent. Frankly, for someone who was there in the days of mediocrity, the growth is quite breathtaking.
So Lanakila was DQed, I would venture a guess to say they still had more fun then the crews that went up to accept the first place medals after the race. (I've seen the photos)
It should feel pretty hollow to know that their crews did multiple races and still took it to the rest of the field.
Go back to the drawing board, do some more push ups, sit ups or whatever you need and good luck next year.
First of all, this thread is making me crack up... Lanakila is successful because of the many club members that believe in the club and believe in working hard. Lanakila's women continue to be dominant in the sport... typically 3 crews in the top 10, if not top 6-7... Jeane Barrett and Jill Schooler and their girls have been dominant in the paddling community for years.
To say that Lanakila was stacking their crews is a bit comical as well being that the co-ed team that won the open race included a 15 year old girl, a 16 year old girl, and a novice female that had already raced in the novice race. The 15 and 16 year olds were so stoked just to race with those boys... It's not about the medal. They were stoked to paddle with some of the best guys in CA... And I don't recall Danny or Justin being in the top mens crew... A masters crew crossed the line first.
I understand that rules are rules, but maybe it's time to reevaluate...
Actually i was in the boat that got second place to Lanakila. We lost to Josh's boat by 8 seconds, Imua came in 6 seconds behind us, Team Cal and NAC were within a minute and half of Imua. it was one of the most fulfilling races I have ever had. Not because I got first open (lanakila was registered masters), but because of the competition was so intense. At the first turn (about 3 miles into the race) the 5 boats were side by side, at the second turn Lanakila and Imua had jumped out in front, and the rest of us were still side by side, we put our heads down and turned the tables and came in second. I would never consider for one second that I won that race, but I did paddle my ass off to win my division. I assure you there was no hollowness to my effort. You know what we did right after that race? I mean after I recovered from the effort (seriously that race hurt), I drank beer with everyone of my competitors. Also I saw some of the Imua coeds give their medals to the lanakila coeds. There was plenty of comradery going on that day, you just had to be there!
if the rules suck, change em. next season you wont get Dq'd.
They win because they're good, people complain that they're stackin they're crews by racing twice, and in one case 3 times. No matter who they put in a crew, its gonna be good, and the intention is not to take medals from other crews. They race multiple times so that other paddlers get to race. their were about 7 paddlers total that day that got to race cause lanakila's boys raced multiple times, but what pisses people off is that they're just good at what they do. I know a bunch of kids that race twice EVERY weekend and never get DQ'd myself included. The idea of the racing twice rule is good, but the consistency with how it is enforced needs to change. People race twice to let others race, not to sweep divisions
Lanikila got tired of winning mens race without any challenges so they decided to have fun and some of their paddlers raced coed in one race earlier, no can race two races same day.
#1 Mon, 06/29/2009 - 9:56am
sorry about da typo, Lanakila!!!
#2 Mon, 06/29/2009 - 10:00am
That makes perfect sense. DQ the guys that won the race because they decided to paddle an extra race instead of sitting around the beach talking about paddling.
I'm no Bill Gates but having rules that discourage race participation is probably not a very good long term growth strategy for a race organization.
#3 Mon, 06/29/2009 - 10:51am
I am with you on that one Kimbo,
I can understand Lanakila wanting to test themselves by over loading themselves under pressure.
I also admire that they want to support local races by participation.
#4 Mon, 06/29/2009 - 12:51pm
if they have enough energy for two races, you can make the argument that they didn't paddle hard enough in the first race?
on another note, although these paddlers may be fit enough to do both races, the rules are in place to protect paddlers that may not be fit enough but still try and do both.
Rules are rules, it is not up to the paddlers to choose which we want to follow, There is an opportunity every year to challenge/change any rules.
#5 Mon, 06/29/2009 - 2:20pm
I gotta agree with Ohana even though I think this particular rule is lame. SCORA has an open review of all race rules every year. Any club can enter a proposal to have any changes/additions/addendums they deem necessary to any of the rules be voted on by the other clubs. If the rule is stifling to participation, it's an easy fix.
Besides it's bad enough having these guys whip our @$$es every week, now they have to double-up and really make it embarrassing?
#6 Mon, 06/29/2009 - 5:28pm
I can't say I agree. No one seems to have a problem with people doing the short course and the long course during the winter season one man/ski races. In fact, some races have a special division to encourage this. If safety was such a issue, you would have seen issues there first where someone doesn't have a crew to carry them if they get tired. To my knowledge, there's never been a safety problem with the people doing both the long and short course at those races. Let's face it. The people who this might be a safety issue work hard to finish one race, which I'm not trying to knock. They get what they are looking for when they show up to race, which is great. They're not interested in doing both races.
From my experience, the people doing both races fall into three categories. They jump in another crew that is short people, which allows that crew to race. They want to get two workouts after they've driven several hours each way and dedicated a whole day (or several) to travel and race, which is the norm in California. Finally, you have people that are genuinely stoked to paddle and would rather spend their time on the water instead of waiting on the beach to race. These are not mutually exclusive.
I'm not saying that doing both races is right for everyone. Just about everyone does one race and has a great time, which is the point. I just don't see a single reason why an organization with the following mission statement,
"...dedicated to the perpetuation of outrigger canoe racing both regionally in Southern California and worldwide, and to further maintain the rich Pacific island culture and traditions that are rooted in the sport."
would have a rule to discourage people from paddling more, if that is what they choose.
#7 Mon, 06/29/2009 - 9:55pm
I also need to agree with Ocean Ohana and Six Asone.
First a note: We as an organization may need to evaluate the relevance of this rule next year. And submit new proposals. There is a forum in place to challenge race rules.
But, I need to add a point: this rule is more than safety driven. It is also to discourage clubs from fielding super all-star teams and sweeping divisions. (my impression) This particular situation is not in the same spirit as "we need one more paddler in order to race". If that is what Lanakila did ... then that is an admirable situation. But, they didn't ... they put together these crews in order to sweep divisions at Iron champs. And that spirit of racing SCORA is trying to discourage.
(Everyone is going to hate me for stating the above. If this was not Lanakila's intentions ... my deepest apologies.)
I do think this racing scenario discourages competitors opposed to appeal to the few who desire a 2-race challenge. If it becomes obvious that the same crew is going to win all the races ... there is little incentive (ie: fewer medals) for other crews to go after. (Thus the sport becomes very elite ... and only the elite will be motivated and remain.)
This discussion is really a compliment to Lanakila. If you weren't so dang dominate ... your double race tactic would go unnoticed.
To be truthful I do think California teams are really behind the curve in outrigger and we need to find ways to bring the level of competition in SCORA up without, pushing the other competitors who are here for the spirit of the sport down.
The spirit award given on Saturday was a great first step!!
I have a point regarding money and extra boats in larger clubs ... but, I think I have stoked the fire enough today. :)
I welcome many and all comments.
#8 Tue, 06/30/2009 - 10:57am
I'm not familiar with the racing formats in the states so forgive these questions
what are the distance of these races in question?
what makes lanakila canoe club a level higher than the rest of the state?
Mahalo
#9 Tue, 06/30/2009 - 11:23am
kamamakakaua,
The race above was the last iron distance race of the SCORA season. The long course races (or 'Open' divisions) usually run between 10-14 miles, depending on conditions. The women and coed (usually all coed divisions) run first followed by the men in the afternoon.
"What makes Lanakila canoe club a level higher than the rest of the state?" I could recite some of the snarkier speculations often heard on the beach after races, but Danny, Josh, and others who paddle for Lanakila who post here from time to time could better explain it.
Keep in mind, paddling is not California's state sport nor does it have specific cultural relevance here. I think the clubs that do well have found a way to make paddling relevant to local athletes. (The choice of the word 'athlete' should be noted.) To grow the sport in SoCal we have to figure out how to entice and involve a different demographic than found in Hawaii.
Lanakila found a way to make it work here. Doesn't always sit well with everybody how they may or may not have done it. As soon as my club can sweep all divisions, I'm sure we'll be less fussy about it.
#10 Tue, 06/30/2009 - 12:21pm
Braddahs and Sistas...
Having paddled in various places and associations, all points above come valid. Very familiar with the Cali rules and makes a lot of sense to those that paddle in Cali and have always paddled in Cali. For those of us that live and breathe paddling in our islands, have a different take on things especially with how we feel about our own State Sport. Not to mention the beautiful waters we have to paddle in.
Now, rules are rules and if you break them, you pay. If lanakila wanted to just paddle and get the extra workout, then they should and not cross the finish line and have the score reps take down a boat number and then have to DQ them after. The rule is for divisions to accumulate points for their club ultimately earning an award at the end of the Ironman season. To stack divisions becomes unfair for those clubs that don't carry the numbers (paddlers) or in some teams cases "athletes" have the ability to stack for points.
Lanakila is good for two reasons, 1) Danny Ching and the 2) men that Danny recruits. With this in mind, Lanakila is not a racing "club" but a racing team...no different from, Team Quiksilver, Team Cal, Team New Zealand, PA'A, Team Bradley, etc. Now, a true racing club would be (Oahu) Lanikai, Hui Lanakila, Hui Nalu, Waikiki Beach Boys, Outrigger, Kailua, etc (Maui) Hawaiian OCC, (Cali) Dana, Imua, Kai Elua, Marina, Oceanside, NAC just the ones that are known for solid men's programs.
Lanakila will always be the Cali team to represent Cali for Danny has the ability to recruit or the ability to pic and choose who he wants to paddle for his team...in some cases, olympic athletes. Not your traditional club...believe me, there are guys who wish they can paddle for him and those that don't care to because of their loyalty to their own. The boys that leave their club to paddle for the fastest team...good for you but no forget where you come from.
As for Six as One, if you new a lil about Cali paddling all the clubs i've seen do have cultural relevance. You must be new to the sport because if you start paddling in any area in the world, it begins or began with someone from the islands - cultural relevance. You still call an ama, "ama" right? You don't call it a floatation device. Everywhere in the world where there is paddling has cultural relevance regardless of outrigging's origin. Everytime you sit in a canoe, you became relevant. When your paddle hits the water and you pull your canoe forward, its relevant. Its because of our Polynesian cultures that make outrigging relevant. So Bra, whether you like it or not, it's relevant in the most Cultural way.
If you have "fussy" in your club, a braddah told me, maybe da grumbling is not because of losing, because of da same ol #%$@. Maybe you boys need change...ask Obama!
#11 Tue, 06/30/2009 - 1:57pm
as dominant as lanakila has been for a long time, they have club members across the athletic spectrum, so i think that the statement that they are not a club in a traditional sense is incorrect. they most definitely are a club...
they do have guys on their top crew who are from different locations and someone else who knows better can explain how they work out the paddletics of that scenario.. as far as recruiting from outside, you need success to attract talent, right?
it's not brain surgery, when you look at the entries of the oc1 races in winter, and their club affiliations, it's not hard to figure out who is going to field strong crews in summer.
if someone is dominating, it just means that as a competing club we have to step our game up- recruit better athletes, train our novices well, keep people in the program, more water time, more water time... no bitching allowed if you or your fellow club members aren't training as hard as the guys who are dominating.
#12 Tue, 06/30/2009 - 2:32pm
talent brings more talent.
nearly every elite paddling crew has athletes from various clubs. i think the one exception that comes to my mind is Lanikai.
nothing wrong with that, it's just how things work. most any elite crew that claims all it's paddlers started at their current club has probably got their facts a bit confused.
#13 Tue, 06/30/2009 - 6:16pm
Shoots, maybe I wasn't clear in what I was saying. Having people enjoy the cultural aspects of paddling is different than having cultural relevance to someone of different ethnic or geographic heritage. Yes, the majority (not all mind you) of the SoCal clubs were started by proud Polynesians bringing an aspect of their heritage to their new homes.
In Hawaii, Tahiti, New Zealand, etc. paddling is integral to the history of the people that live there. I would image pride in oneself and in ones heritage is a significant motivating factor for participating in outrigger in any areas where Polynesian people or the history of those people reside en masse. But I doubt that's what draws some of the Olympic athletes you mentioned (with the exception of the Dolan Bros) to paddle for clubs (or teams as you say). Cultural relevance probably isn't the drawing factor for the K1/C1 paddlers training down in Chula Vista. Seems like winning makes outrigger relevant to them.
dacho and jc9_0 are spot on. Success breeds success. No sour grapes about that. That's what we aspire to.
#14 Wed, 07/01/2009 - 5:20am
Actually, jc9, Lanikai's success has brought many guys there who wouldn't have paddled for Lanikai if they weren't already succesful. The hard work of the inner corps brought the initial success, but it's been added to over the years w/ a steady flow of (relatively) outside talent. Frankly, for someone who was there in the days of mediocrity, the growth is quite breathtaking.
#15 Wed, 07/01/2009 - 5:38am
#16 Wed, 07/01/2009 - 6:50am
Mahalo for all that info - i've got a much better grasps of Cali paddling! Funny vid as well to add to that!
#17 Wed, 07/01/2009 - 1:41pm
So Lanakila was DQed, I would venture a guess to say they still had more fun then the crews that went up to accept the first place medals after the race. (I've seen the photos)
It should feel pretty hollow to know that their crews did multiple races and still took it to the rest of the field.
Go back to the drawing board, do some more push ups, sit ups or whatever you need and good luck next year.
Congrats to Lanakila
#18 Wed, 07/01/2009 - 2:36pm
First of all, this thread is making me crack up... Lanakila is successful because of the many club members that believe in the club and believe in working hard. Lanakila's women continue to be dominant in the sport... typically 3 crews in the top 10, if not top 6-7... Jeane Barrett and Jill Schooler and their girls have been dominant in the paddling community for years.
To say that Lanakila was stacking their crews is a bit comical as well being that the co-ed team that won the open race included a 15 year old girl, a 16 year old girl, and a novice female that had already raced in the novice race. The 15 and 16 year olds were so stoked just to race with those boys... It's not about the medal. They were stoked to paddle with some of the best guys in CA... And I don't recall Danny or Justin being in the top mens crew... A masters crew crossed the line first.
I understand that rules are rules, but maybe it's time to reevaluate...
#19 Fri, 07/03/2009 - 2:31pm
Actually i was in the boat that got second place to Lanakila. We lost to Josh's boat by 8 seconds, Imua came in 6 seconds behind us, Team Cal and NAC were within a minute and half of Imua. it was one of the most fulfilling races I have ever had. Not because I got first open (lanakila was registered masters), but because of the competition was so intense. At the first turn (about 3 miles into the race) the 5 boats were side by side, at the second turn Lanakila and Imua had jumped out in front, and the rest of us were still side by side, we put our heads down and turned the tables and came in second. I would never consider for one second that I won that race, but I did paddle my ass off to win my division. I assure you there was no hollowness to my effort. You know what we did right after that race? I mean after I recovered from the effort (seriously that race hurt), I drank beer with everyone of my competitors. Also I saw some of the Imua coeds give their medals to the lanakila coeds. There was plenty of comradery going on that day, you just had to be there!
if the rules suck, change em. next season you wont get Dq'd.
Corry
Dana Outrigger
#20 Thu, 07/30/2009 - 5:19am
They win because they're good, people complain that they're stackin they're crews by racing twice, and in one case 3 times. No matter who they put in a crew, its gonna be good, and the intention is not to take medals from other crews. They race multiple times so that other paddlers get to race. their were about 7 paddlers total that day that got to race cause lanakila's boys raced multiple times, but what pisses people off is that they're just good at what they do. I know a bunch of kids that race twice EVERY weekend and never get DQ'd myself included. The idea of the racing twice rule is good, but the consistency with how it is enforced needs to change. People race twice to let others race, not to sweep divisions
#21 Thu, 07/30/2009 - 7:35am