Do DG?s count

Do DG?s count as " fastest times " on the hcrapaddler.com? Just recently looked over the Championship races for each island association to see what states is going to be looking like and noticed that the MOKU association had Keauhou?s senior men as the fastest in senior race 1 1/2 ( which is the first time ever this year for MOKU to have the seniors race ) at 10:30, but were DQ?ed. Just wondering.

Submitted by anykine on Sat, 07/18/2009 - 11:23pm



Not anymore.

This ad by "DG" was pulled from Spain after complaints it promoted violence against women -

Dolce & Gabbana's response: In La Vanguardia, D&G claims that Spain is "a bit behind the times" and just doesn't get art when they see it.

OK ok, my apologies - boredom strikes!

No, DQ's do not count since teams would just start before the "starting gun" or turn before the flag or stack crews with unqualified paddlers just to get the fastest times - all potential justifications for DQ;s

I just looked at the fastest HCRA senior race times and I don't see Keahou on there.


#1 Mon, 07/20/2009 - 5:03pm


It was there on Sunday morning. I guess it was removed. Seems to me that the MOKU was trying to put it into the " fastest time " to get some attention even with a DG?ed.

With the DG?ed, the Keauhou mens senior crew is not State qualified for Hilo. Too bad.


#2 Mon, 07/20/2009 - 9:08pm


Why were they DQ'ed?


#3 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 6:17am


Rumor has it that Keauhou " cheated " in the sophmore race which they nevered fessed up to ( but, a picture in the Sunday?s Hilo Tribune showed the proof of them cheating) and it caught up to them in the senior race by having a guy racing three times. Tough times.


#4 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 9:27am


Yeah it they got caught using the same steersman three times. It was the most impressive win they had all day, what were they thinking? Probably would have been top favs going into states in that race. Big Island only gets one chance to qualify in that race. Now they have to try to buy a lane from another club if they want to do it. Good luck

" be like water..."


#5 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 10:14am


Thats really too bad. Keauhou has a strong roster of paddlers. Would have been nice to see them lined up against the best in the islands. I wonder why Moku only decided to have a senior race this year? Anywho, the boys will no doubt make an impressive showing come distance.


#6 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 11:00am


Moku voted a couple of years back to take the senior men and women race out of our regular season, from what I heard it was to shorten the regatta because they were running too long or something, and only run it in the Moku championship. I mean our regattas start at 8:30am and go til 5:00pm sometimes a little longer. the other islands do this race during the regular season. Do they have the problem of running too late?... just a question.


#7 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 11:59am


If OHCRA finished all their regattas at 5 PM that would be a dream!
I give credit to the people who stay from set-up in the morning to break-down at end of the regatta, the officials etc. coz sometimes we finish when its already getting dark and cold well past 5 PM.


#8 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 1:35pm


Apparently is was the fault of a guy name Johnathan Grayson, who paddles for Keauhou. It was brought to his attention of the officials that Keauhous Sophmore men had illegally put someone into that race. But this guy Johnathan who is using the "new " camara, that they want to use at states, and instead of showing the championship photo finish of the Sophmore race of that day, he went back into another regatta Sophmore photo to show that there was no illegal wrong doing and the decision stood. But, the Hilo Tribune showed other wise the next day in the sports section. How is that?


#9 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 1:50pm


RUMORS ARE JUST THAT.......RUMORS. KEAHOU MEN DID GET DQ'D IN THE SENIOR MENS RACE. THE PAPER WORK SENT IN HAD THE WRONG STEERSMAN LISTED FOR THE SENOIR RACE. NOBODY RACED THREE TIMES. THE STEERSMAN ACCUSED HAS BEEN PADDLING 30 PLUS YEARS AND NEVER CHEATED. SO GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU BEGIN TO JUDGE OTHERS, THIS WAS A PAPERWORK ERROR, AND DESERVED DQ BUT WAS NOT, AND I REPEAT, NOT CHEATING IN ANY FORM. AS ANYONE KNOWS REGATTAS PUT GREAT STRAIN ON COACHES AND AIDES AS THERE ARE RACES EVERY FEW MINUTES AND SOMETIMES PAPERWORK ERRORS HAPPEN. JUST NEEDED TO GET THE FACTS OUT AS THE RUMORS WERE HURTFUL !!!!!!


#10 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 2:07pm


....


#11 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 3:39pm


Disclosure:
My name is Jonathan Grayson.
I am the President of Moku O Hawai'i.
I am the Chairperson of the Technology committee of the HCRA.
I paddle for Keauhou.
I am responsible for the development of RaceDay (the registration and results software used at our regattas) and the HCRApaddler.com website.

With that out of the way I would like the opportunity to address some of the points raised in this thread:
1) DQs do not count for Fastest Times. They did, however, show up for a short while on Sunday morning before I had a chance for a cup of coffee. The reason for this error was that I had honored a request to include times for DQed crews so that coaches could know how a crew had performed even if they were DQed. Before this DQed crews had a time of zero. Unfortunately, the Fastest Times calculator ignored DQs as they always had a time of zero. The calculator now takes DQs into account and they do not show up.
2) "Cheated" is a very loaded term. It seems that some Senior Men crew cards were submitted in the Sophomore Men sleeve and vice versa. If that falls under your definition of "cheating" then so be it. Cheating or not, it is against the rules and at card check they were DQed.
3) No crew was DQed for a paddler racing three times.
4) Moku O Hawai'i runs the Senior Men and Senior Women races only at our Championship regatta. There are a number of reasons for this, time being the most pressing. Bear in mind that we run a Mixed 60s event and that half our paddlers drive 200 miles to compete in a regatta. The downside is that it is possible to blow your only chance to win a States slot.
5) The "new camera" system is called FinishLynx and does not produce a photo from which one can make such a call. See http://www.mokuohawaii.org/finishlynx for a description of the system. See http://www.hcrapaddler.com/members/race_image/MOKU2009-07-18MSo.jpg for the camera output for the Sophomore Men race. If you go to the results page and click on the camera icons you can see the finish for any race. In passing, the reason that all this information is publicly available to everyone online is exactly so that one person cannot do as was suggested and fake out the officials.
6) The Race Director used a still photo shot by Rosie Rosenthal to make a decision about which crew a paddler had raced in.

I hope that this post helps those who are interested in knowing what actually transpired that day, and what I hope will be the direction that our associations take in making the running of regattas ever more transparent.

And as for anykine, I expect you to man up and retract your accusation or come out from behind your anonymous handle.

Jonathan


#12 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 4:13pm


Some are going to call it cheating. Some, like me, are going to call it a mistake. Regardless, those guys were flying. And they had 2 novices in the crew. Good job to the guys in the boat. Now you can get back to fighting over paperwork.


#13 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 4:51pm


It was as dominating a performance as you'll ever see.


#14 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 6:27pm


Thanks there Johnathan! There is no worry to know who I am. There seems to be more to worry about your crew line ups and getting them in the right race than who I am.

By looking at your guys? track record at all regattas, it seemed as if all proper paper work and line ups were in place ( there were no DQ?s in the open men races before ). It just seemed a bit strange that on your island championship regatta day, things were out of place.

Best to put your State crews in place now so your crews don?t get DQed come Aug 01.

Fast time indeed!


#15 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 8:47pm


hey there anykine, no worries on the ID thing - that's your call.

I should say though, that when I became President of Moku O Hawai'i I stepped down from any official position at Keauhou Canoe Club so as to avoid any potential perception of conflict of interest. That is probably why you got my hackles to rise with the previous post.

Ask anyone on the island of Hawai'i and I hope you find that they would agree that they believe that my intent has always been to open the shutters onto the internal workings of our association and make it about the paddlers and not the personalities.

I shall pass your advice on to those who will be making crew decisions for my club at States - see you there!

Jonathan


#16 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 9:05pm


Cheers! I won?t be there because didn?t make it and too costly to go.

Good luck to all and hope to hear about the dramas about States!


#17 Tue, 07/21/2009 - 9:30pm


Hey Jonathan, mahalo nui for making all that information available on the HCRAPADDLER.com site - that is one SWEET source of info - AWESOMENESS!
The advances in the timing and photo finishes are pretty impressive too.
Appreciate you stepped in to clarify on the rumor. Like I said earlier, its really too bad Keahou will not get to represent in seniors coz we all know da guys can do serious damage.


#18 Wed, 07/22/2009 - 1:02am


Thanks kamamakakaua. It is still a work in progress, so if you have ideas on what else could be presented please let me know, either directly, via the HCRApaddler.com website or in a thread here.

It is true that it would be too bad if the Keauhou seniors could not represent but there is always the possibility for a lane to come free.

Jonathan


#19 Wed, 07/22/2009 - 7:51am


Aloha all-

I tried really hard to stay out of this one, but I cannot take this anymore. Since Johnathan came out and gave his version, I will give mine as well.
1. I was the first one to approach the offical tent and ask on how is it possible to announce " paddler x's " name over the PA system as being in the crew but wasn't?

  1. Mike Atwood ( race director ) took my complaint and then went to look into the race line up sheet that was turned in. He then went to Johnathan. Mike came back to me and said that Johnathan said that the race camara shows that " paddler x " was for sure in the canoe.
  2. I pleaded with Mike and said that cannot be because I myself as well as the many others of our club who watched that particular race saw that " paddler x " was not in there. On top of it all, Keauhou's Soph crew were in lane 2 which is about 60 yrads from shore and paddled past our club after their race as they were going back to their club ( which was two tents down the beach 40 yards.
  3. Because I felt it was wrong, I went to go look for and found the newspaper man who was taking pictures of the day. I asked if he had taken pictures of the Soph race. He said yes he did. We went back into his camara and found pictures that he took and it clearly showed that what I saw along with what our club memebers saw was correct. And whatever Johnathan was looking at was wrong! ( that was shown the next day in the Hilo Tribune like anykine said. )
  4. Also in the Soph race picture, it showed that the paddler in violation was wearing a green and white hat. " Paddler x " who was suppose to be in there was wearing a yellow and white hat that day, which he wore for the Jr. and sSenior race as well.
  5. That same picture from the newspaper guy was then taken to the official stand to show proof of wrong doing. It was not taken into consideration.
  6. Here's how the Senior men got dq'ed. " paddler x " only did two races that day. " Paddler x " was to be in the Soph race, but wasn't. Then later did the Jr race which was his first actual race but second on paper. He then did the Senior race which would be his second actual race, but third on paper. There is the dq.

Was there cheating? maybe/ maybe not? What strikes me being that you knew what was going on, Johnathan, and you are in the official tent, why didn't you bring this up to the mens coach and have him be aware what was going on and to maybe re-check the line ups before any more open men race? It was the Soph race that all this was going on which would have given the mens coach the Jr women and mens as well as the Senior womens races, which is about 35 minutes or longer to put things into order before sending out the men to do the Senior race and to get dq'ed. It is about management!

I, myself, coach and is in charge of 8 womens crew and 8 mens crew weekend in and weekend out and believe me I make sure that all line ups are prepared by Friday night for Saturday morning for everyone to view along with helpers to check that no one is doing 3 races. If I was in your postion as a Keauhou memeber and at the official tent, I would have taken the dq for the sophmore race ( and you would still be State qualified with the number one pick for our Island in the Soph ) and get things right for the Senior since it is just a ONE time deal to get State qualified. As of now, they are not State qualified , but perhaps through purchasing an open lane.

I hope this post helps those who are interested in knowing what actually transpired that day.

Eddie Hayward


#20 Wed, 07/22/2009 - 10:21am


Whoever said regatta wasn't exciting! What a great build up to the states! Now, all we need is a lane to open up so Keauhou can line it up with the best in the state. If this was UFC, it would be a sell-out for sure. All kidding aside, EddieHayward nailed it to a T from what it sounds like - a management issue. If this infact is the way things transpired, I personally don't think the paddlers should be punished for a coaching mistake, since paddler 'x' did not paddle in three races and was "technically' legit with what I catagorize as a semantic error in the official documentation of the crews.

i'm coming from a paddlers point of view - let the best paddlers race against one another - esp. in the biggest race of the regatta season and penalize the club using fines or other means such as points for the club etc.

Btw - it sounds like the DQ should have been on the Sophomore race and not the Senior since the paper error happen on the sophomore race and the submission for the Junior and Senior crews were in order.

What started out as a benign post by anykine has erupted into the perfect promo for states.


#21 Wed, 07/22/2009 - 11:43am


Could someone explain what "buying a lane" actually means? Can you really make it to states by paying off another crew/club? Doesn't that pretty much negate the whole idea of racing a whole season to qualify for a spot?

I am sure there is a good story on how this rule made into the book.


#22 Wed, 07/22/2009 - 1:03pm


Probably to deal with a situation exactly like this where the fastest crew in the state could potentially be excluded from the Blue Ribbon event.


#23 Wed, 07/22/2009 - 1:25pm


kimo:

Some clubs qualify a lane but decide not to send a crew. That lane is then open to "be bought". In Moku O Hawai'i the next eligible crew is offered the slot and so on until all the slots are filled.

At the States Lane Draw any slots that remain unfilled can "be bought" by different associations.

In fact the term "buy a lane" is a misnomer - all lanes are purchased (at $50 per lane) there is no extra charge for getting a lane using the procedure above.

Jonathan


#24 Wed, 07/22/2009 - 3:05pm


kamamakakaua wrote:

Btw - it sounds like the DQ should have been on the Sophomore race and not the Senior since the paper error happen on the sophomore race and the submission for the Junior and Senior crews were in order.

Had the Sophomore crew been carded after the race they would have been DQed (it seems that the error was that the cards for the steersman in the sophomore and senior crews were switched so they were both wrong).

One of the primary benefits of the RaceDay system is that officials can warn clubs that a particular crew submission is invalid well before the event and allow them to correct the error. For example, if a paddler was submitted three times the system tells the operator who can then call up a rep from the club to fix the issue before the third race.

Jonathan


#25 Thu, 07/23/2009 - 11:42am


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