Good day of racing in Hilo. What would have happened if they did the real kind of scoring rewarding 1-4 crews instead of points for all? Most track and swimming meets give points to the top finishers instead of all competitors. For sure the overall placings would change!
Of course the overall places would change if you only scored the top 3, 4, 5, 6 whatever. The rules before the season are to score the top 15 -- a club trying to win the overall team points championship bases its strategy upon that... I think that's the format for most championships, but not the local meets, even in swimming and track.
For the State Regatta, I like this -- it probably doesn't matter as much for the adults, but the kids that work hard all summer long, fundraise to travel to states, and then come back home with a 6th, 10th, or 14th place ribbon -- that's still pretty awesome when you're a kid.
The scoring used to be somehing like that. Only certain placings got points. The reason I was told for the change was that it was too hard for small clubs to score points. Now it seems the system heavily favors the club with the most crews though. Which seems ok since you pay your dues all season to qualify as many paddlers as you can.
Major props to the Waikiki Beach Girls. You ladies smashed in the women's races!
I noticed Keahou's Seniopr Men DQ'ed again does anyone know what happened this time? Why don't they specify what violation warranted a DQ in the results.
Congrats to everybody who made states this year, the most people I've ever seen at Bayfront. The conditions were epic and all the lanes looked pretty even across the board.
Mahalo Nui to Kai Opua for borrowing us their Koa for our Open Mix race again. We were super stoked for that, even though we lost two of our crew members hours before our race, we hope we did Hualalai proud.
Mahalos to Keone and Laurie for stepping in at the last minute you guys rock.
Chad stay up brother we're all there for you and your family. Love you, man.
Mahalo to Carolina for spearheading the food booth, that was truly amazing.
Thanks to all of our club members for all the hard work yesterday.
Congrats to the Novice B girls and 13 boys and all our coaches.
This is what it's all about, OHANA.
Now on to distance see u at the Lilioukalani.
Work hard and great things happen.
Kai Opua Mahalos you and Na Waa Hanakahi in allowing to have two of our Koa canoes to be on the same race course at the same time. Our assistance is our pleasure.
To see the reason for a DQ simply roll your mouse over the DQ on the results page and a tooltip will appear with the reason for the DQ. Hope that helps!
As for the DQ-
this is something that the officials need to address-
Keahou apparently is a threat to some and the only way to retaliate
is to DQ. We wonder why our sport can only go so far.
I don't mean to offend any official who made the call but I hope someone can share some thoughts on this ...
how much can a boat holder, who is in water, contribute to the forward momentum of a 400+ pound canoe with 6 x 160+ pound paddlers sitting in that canoe if he/she has nothing to brace him/herself against while pushing that canoe with his/her arm in the overhead position?
i guess the way I think about it, its like pushing an over sized luggage into an overhead bin in an airplane - the only difference being you're not standing on a solid/firm surface to brace against.
It's ironic....maybe about 7 or 8 years ago Outrigger got DQed in States because a boatholder was giving canoes a push on the start. The boatholder was Jimmy Austin who was in the Outrigger crew that got the default win Saturday.
the classic twist is that they went to the video to see if they could see the boat holder pushing the boat and they couldn't. total joke of officiating -
I believe that the rule was introduced because it is possible to stand on the bottom in lanes 1 and 2 when the tide is low in Ke'ehi lagoon. A boat holder who can brace his feet on the bottom can influence a canoe's acceleration.
It is unfortunate that this rule is applied in other venues, where boat holders cannot brace their feet on the bottom. In theoretical terms any force that the holder generates will accelerate him/her in the opposite direction at 10 times the acceleration provided to the canoe (canoe mass ~1600lbs, holder mass ~160lbs). If you assume that a holder can generate about 10% of the force that a paddler can, then you are talking about an acceleration of 1% of that created by one paddler for one stroke.
In practical terms the holder is more likely to retard the acceleration of the canoe by holding it back or altering its direction.
Given that the maximal impact of deliberate pushing is so insignificant it seems to be counter-productive to have a judgment call rule that is unverifiable, almost impossible to overturn, and thus so open to the perception of abuse.
The rules do say that the boat holders cannot assist in the forward motion at the start. How many boats can the official boats watch at the start? Maybe 1 or 2 at the most. Who will they watch? Is it at the officials discretion or is it a boat that is randomly selected? If the rules cannot be equitably enforced then there should be additional rules in place to make sure that the officials cannot show bias. Even if there is no bias, there will always be allegations of bias if officials in the boats choose which boat holders to watch. Have a random selection of who will be watched and then record it on video to prove the allegation. One DQ for boat holder violation all day long is a little suspicious.
You can download the race rules for HCRA, OHCRA, and MOKU from their web sites. I am not sure about the other associations. They are all a bit different, I didn't even see a section on holders in MOKU, but I only skimmed it.
Jonathan:
I love the finish line pictures that you are adding to the results page.
I am glad someone is looking at them as they are a pain to produce!
The FinishLynx software has a "Save to .jpg" option but our files are huge and it takes an hour to process one event and the file produced is 100MB+, so instead I construct an image from screenshots and piece them together. In the FinishLynx system itself the resolution is, of course, much better.
Jonathan-
this software you speak so highly of- show us a couple picks from the start
and lets see how difficult it is to see a canoe in lane 10 being pushed.
As I mentioned in an earlier post the pushing call is not verifiable by any technology that we use. I suppose we could require holders to wear gloves with pressure sensors in them!
The FinishLynx system takes a photo of the finish/start line one pixel wide and 2000 pixels high 1000 times a second, and then butts those images together to produce the image you see on the results page. The holder does not move through the plane of the start line and thus is usually not seen. Only elements passing through the plane of the start line are visible.
I'm curious how someone in the water can help a boat start when they are looking the opposite direction?? I'm new to 6 man but this kind of "judging" reminds me a lot of the judging style in boxing - prwtty unfair. Can anyone reall say an unprovable judgment call from the beach to lane 10 is fair?
they were going to DQ Keahou from the start (no pun intended).
they DQ them 2 weeks ago in the Senior Mens race after they
won for misplacing names and Kai O pua
cried to the officials. So again, he says, she says, but no video proof of any wrong doing- love it!
I agree with everyone....what a lame, lame DQ for Keauhou in the Senior race. It was obvious that some official had an ax to grind. I don't agree with what that so called Live Strong gang is doing on the big island, by that I mean they bounce around from club to club (Kai Opua, Kai I Hitu, Tui Tonga, Keauhou, who's next?). But, I one thing about them, they can flat out paddle...you gotta admit that and recognize that. So, to DQ them for something so manini, that according to Newton's third law of motion is physically impossible to do in the water, and to say that that little push (if any forward momentum was generated at all) contributed to the win after paddling 1 and a half miles....that is so outrageous...
I fee sorry for the paddlers and the effort they put out. From our vantage point, they were behind Outrigger in the last quarter coming home to the finish, and they tracked them down and passed them. Awesome....for the team. Beautiful to watch. Almost reminded me of the epic come from behind win Lanikai had last year I think in the Soph or Jr. race. Canoe paddling at its finest!!
All coaches are reminded of this and they pass it on to all boat holders. As has been mentioned, the call is non-verifiable (short of swimming out with a force gauge).
konapaddler:
I cannot accept the accusation that this call was a deliberate attempt to knobble a specific crew. Officials are unpaid volunteers who do this for the love of the sport. It is inconceivable to me for someone to be so petty minded that they would make an official call specifically to benefit their own club.
Kai Opua did not cry about it! It was me, Eddie Hayward, who challenged a call that was announced over the official sound system that was not aligned with what I saw with my eyes after the Sophmore race. Therefore, I asked for clairification for that situation. Johnathan, in charge of camara, said that the line up that was announced was the exact same crew, bullshit! So, I was able to have the Tribune-Hearld sport editor who was taken photos that day to show the TRUTH which he had in hand of that crew and race. That picture was never taken into account and the decision stood. Sundays sports section shows clearly that what I was right about was denied by an " official " call.
As for the Senior mens race, when a name is announced twice over the sound system ( soph and junior ) and that same individual climbs into the senior race, which equals 3rd race of the day, and yes that was only his second offical race, that is when we asked how is that possible which resulted in a DQ. That Senior race could have been a clean race if my source was taken into account which would have the Keauhous mens coach re-look at the line ups to make sure all was good for the rest of the day for them. I guess I was more of helping than hurting if you really look at it.
If that is crying then I hate to see what you think what a tantrum is. So, I say and have photo and proof of wrong doing and still not considered.
At times, offical calls are correct and at times they are not. Some of us are looked at as being cry babies when we go to the officails for clairification and some of us think of officails as cowards for foolish calls and wish they were not around to officiate.
there was an earlier comment/question about how clubs would have done if only the top places counted towards overall division championships. Hawaiian's coach/stat man extordinare showed me a vareity of different ways he has examined the results. One way was to look at how many of the top clubs had crews in the top 6. Hawaiian had 26; Kai Opua and Kailua had 18; Lanikai, OCC, and Keahou had 17; Hui Nalu 11 and Puna 8.
With this simple glance at the big clubs, looks like first place would not have changed, but the results of the next 5 places could have been different.
Another way to look at the results are average points per crew entered. In this case, it is much closer with three clubs averaging over 9 points: OCC 9.71; Keahou 9.69; and Hawaiian 9.59. Of the big clubs, the next 3 were Kai Opua 8.19; Kailua 8.14; and Lanikai 8.03.
Having done similar analyses over many beers over many years, it is clear that the quantity of crews entered is important but ultimately it is the overall quality of all the crews that wins the championship.
not sure how far back you are going, but before the scoring went 14 deep, it was 9 deep, as I remember 1st place was worth 10 points (could have been 8 deep, like I said before, there's been a lot of beers)
as I recall, they went to the 14 deep scoring system since there were a lot of smaller clubs that could go home with 0 points if they didn't crack the top 9 (or 8)
turns out that the new scoring really separates the field, and allows for rewarding competition amongst the smaller clubs
gone are the days when Hanalei could win the whole enchalata with just a handful of top quality crews
At the risk of seeming self-serving below are the results using the 5321 scoring system. RaceDay (the registration and results software) make generating "what-if" scenarios very easy.
I should also point out that I believe that the current scoring system has enabled us to grow the popularity of the sport by rewarding participation, I fully support it, and would vote against any change.
Having said that...
Keauhou Canoe Club 49 AAAA
Outrigger 45 AAAA
Hawaiian Canoe Club 40 AAAA
Kai Opua Canoe Club 32 AAAA
Lanikai 27 AAAA
Kailua 24 AAAA
Hui Nalu 18 AAAA
Puna Canoe Club 21 AAA
Hui Lanakila 14 AAA
Kaneohe 12 AAA
Kihei Canoe Club 11 AAA
Hanalei 1 AAA
Waikiki Beach Boys 22 AA
Keaukaha Canoe Club 16 AA
Lae'ula O Kai 12 AA
Keahiakahoe 12 AA
Wa'akapaemua 7 AA
Healani 5 AA
Na Keiki O Ka Mo'i 2 AA
Koa Kai 0 AA
Kamehameha Canoe Club 0 AA
Napili 13 A
Tui Tonga 7 A
Kawaihae Canoe Club 5 A
Wailea 5 A
Na Wa'a Hanakahi 5 A
Kai 'Ehitu 3 A
Kalihi-Kai 3 A
Kamehameha 3 A
Makaha 3 A
Waikiki Surf Club 2 A
Na Kai 'Ewalu 2 A
North Shore 2 A
Leeward Kai 1 A
'Alapa Hoe 1 A
Manu O Ke Kai 1 A
Kilohana 1 A
Lahaina 1 A
Hawaiian Outrigger Canoe Club 1 A
Kahana Canoe Club 0 A
Lokahi 0 A
New Hope 0 A
Ka Mamalahoe Canoe Club 0 A
Keoua Canoe Club 0 A
Kaiola 0 A
Anuenue 0 A
KEOLA O KE KAI 0 A
WAIMANALO 0 A
Pukana O Ke Kai 0 A
Molokai 0 A
Kumulokahi-Elks 0 A
Honolulu Pearl Canoe Club 0 A
Namolokama 0 A
Kona Athletic Club 0 A
Hui Wa'a O Waiakea 0 A
Niumalu 0 A
Pu'uloa Outrigger 0 A
Interestingly, such a scoring system has an impact on all the division results though its greatest impact is on the AAAA division.
no question that Keauhou and OCC had the best day in terms of quality
using the simple avg pts per crew approach yeilded almost the same results
obviously, Keauhou's quality scores would have been more impressive without the "judgement" call in the Seniors (by the way if the holder was really trying to push the boat, he should read the comments above and realize how silly his push was, a good yell might have been more effective)
This entire blog and all the people involved pointing fingers and whining need to remember the TRUE warriors who started this great sport and why we continue the tradition today. Its a shame what the coaches, officials, and crews are doing to such an amazing sport! If you win, be humble. If you lose, accept it and come back next time. Officials, quit disgracing the sport with shady calls. Coaches, get your acts together. And paddlers, stop this poor sportsmanship bs! This is NOT what paddling is about and this is NOT what we should be passing down to the future generations!
If you need help understanding, try Hawai'i 78 by IZ
Very interesting results for the 5,3,2,1 system. I like that old system. It rewards quality. Although our club dropped a couple places in this system, I like the fact that quality gets rewarded. I will also agree with you that the current scoring system encourages participation. Our club for sure sent mediocre crews to the states in an effort to score points. We were shooting for top half...7th or better. Didn't work, but a whole bunch of kids got rewarded with a state championship race. Thousands to send the kids to Hilo, priceless the experience they gained.
The way the states is set up right now and unless the people on Maui wise up and start spreading themselves out to the other clubs on Maui, I don't see Hawaiian CC ever losing a state regatta again. They will always come to states very deep (qualifying the most number of crews) and very competitive. Last year was a hiccup and it took a DQ to reward Lanikai the win. I don't see Hawaiian ever losing a state regatta again. At least not in the near future. Kai Opua and now Keauhou might present a threath, but I don't think so.
Maika'i Hilo....great state race. Course was the best I've seen it and I have been going to Hilo for state races since the 70's. Now, if we can just do something about the length of the state regatta day.....finishing the state regatta at 6:30 at night is not a good idea. We gotta do something about that.
One more thing...Jonathan...great job on the HCRA website and everything you bought to HCRA technology wise, to make things better. Appreciate your work.
Jonathan, I ditto that on Jaws comments - the time and effort you put into that http://hcrapaddler.com/ website is very much appreciated! Having the ability to look through the results of every single race and the rosters of each crew and fastest times etc. is very useful. Mahalo nui for all your time and effort and great job to you and the staff in Hilo for putting together an awesome States regatta!!
There are two clubs named for Kamehameha. Kamehameha Canoe Club is a member of Moku O Hawai'i and is based in Hilo. Kamehameha is a member of Hui Wa'a and paddles out of the Ala Wai.
Many thanks for the words of support on the website.
We are now approaching 20,000 visitors a month of whom about 500 actually login (the others are making use of information for which no login is required such as results, States information, finding club locations etc.)
If you have ideas for other information or services that can be offered let me know.
We all know who won the Sr. Mens race! Congrats to Keahou Sr. Men. We definitely have our work cut out for us at OCC, but well b ready to go and looking forward to a rematch in three weeks come Kona.
As far as all the B.S. with this whole boat holding system. You don't see any problem with starts in the Hamilton Island sprint races. No Boat holders and a simple system to start the races. I think this would solve all your problems. If you need boat holders for the kids I would be fine with that. We didn't use boat holders in half the races this season just because it is a lot less to worry about.
Also I believe that the regatta scoring system in the AAAA division should go back to the original 5,3,2,1 system. Then for the AAA you do the top 7, & AA top 10, and A top 14 like it currently is. This I believe would reward the clubs with the strengths of their programs and not with how many races there entered in.
Jonathan,
I noticed that you even include the starting picture for the events that had a starting line infraction DQ (eg. Jr. Men). That's great! How is the software synced with the drop of the red flag? Is that a manual input or is there a separate camera to help define the start? The finish line camera only records 1 pixel wide so the start boat won't show up. Just curious.
If that is the case, then each paddler can only be allowed to race one race and not two at States, but only kids can double up. This here will allow for the 5,3,2,1 point system to be fully legit allowing other clubs who may not be deep with talent, but deep with numbers or the lack of numbers, to show case their strenghts where is it highly being dominated by the clubs who double up with their talented group. Who has the best one hitter quitter Freshman, Soph, Jr, Sr, Master, 50, 55, 60 and Mixes?
In order to get something you gotta give up something.
FinishLynx allows for a number of automated start systems, pistols, chute doors, etc. As we use flags the start is a manual button synced to the starting flags. On those images where a start is shown the vertical red line indicates the startline at zero time. Any canoe with its nose across this red line was over the line.
Bear in mind that the operating procedure for use of the FinishLynx system this year was that it was to be used to verify manual calls. Thus, if an over the start line call was made by an official the FinishLynx system would override that call if it was incorrect. However, DQ calls were not made solely on the basis of the FinishLynx system without an initial over the line call by an official. Thus, you may notice on some occasions when the starting line infraction image is included more than the DQed crew(s) are over the start line.
If you scour the images carefully you will notice a couple of missed over the start line infractions. I should mention that at least a half dozen official calls were overturned on the basis of the FinishLynx images.
It is my hope that rules changes will allow the FnishLynx system to be the first arbiter, but that will be up to the clubs at the HCRA AGM.
Interestingly, there are no over the start line calls that could have been made on any of the races that did not include the start line in the images I posted, and all those were for events where an over the start line was called by an official. This leads me to believe that a major cause of over the start line faults is the way other canoes are lined up!
wow, it is awesome to have the pics and technology provided by jonathan
there are so many variables at play in paddling, it is nice to have the finish line results accurately portrayed
I agree with "ipaddlefor", after the fact complaining about official calls and perceived influencing is a bunch of bs. But I don't agree that the entire blog is a bunch of bs.
After the fact analysis in order to try and improve performance, ability, knowledge, judging, etc is all about being Hawaiian, don't try to tell me for a second that striving for perfection is not Hawaiian
Analysis of results from a different perspective or scoring system is healthy, maybe it helps soothe the pain of "loosing" or not "winning", hopefully, and more importantly, it helps develop perspective and a sense of humbleness.
For me, a meaningful part of this experience came from explaining to a group of 12 and 13 year olds that sometimes you might have done everything to be the best prepared you could be, maybe you were the strongest crew out there (don't count on it), but still things may not have gone your way, whether it be because of ocean conditions or currents, deity influence or some other human error (coaching, crew selection, airline delay, officiating, boat holding, blah blah blah ...)
Unfortunately, for some, the Hilo races were deep and meaningful from an entirely different level. We should all count our blessings and rejoice in what a wonderful day of culture and sport it was.
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20090801/BREAKING02/90801061/-...
or
http://hcrapaddler.com/members/hcra_results.php?view=byevent&rid=151
#1 Sat, 08/01/2009 - 9:25pm
Good day of racing in Hilo. What would have happened if they did the real kind of scoring rewarding 1-4 crews instead of points for all? Most track and swimming meets give points to the top finishers instead of all competitors. For sure the overall placings would change!
#2 Sat, 08/01/2009 - 11:48pm
mbsski:
For a rough idea of what you ask take a look at the "Medal Table" view of the results on HCRApaddler.com
Jonathan
#3 Sun, 08/02/2009 - 7:10am
re: mbsski
Of course the overall places would change if you only scored the top 3, 4, 5, 6 whatever. The rules before the season are to score the top 15 -- a club trying to win the overall team points championship bases its strategy upon that... I think that's the format for most championships, but not the local meets, even in swimming and track.
For the State Regatta, I like this -- it probably doesn't matter as much for the adults, but the kids that work hard all summer long, fundraise to travel to states, and then come back home with a 6th, 10th, or 14th place ribbon -- that's still pretty awesome when you're a kid.
#4 Sun, 08/02/2009 - 9:05am
The scoring used to be somehing like that. Only certain placings got points. The reason I was told for the change was that it was too hard for small clubs to score points. Now it seems the system heavily favors the club with the most crews though. Which seems ok since you pay your dues all season to qualify as many paddlers as you can.
Major props to the Waikiki Beach Girls. You ladies smashed in the women's races!
#5 Sun, 08/02/2009 - 11:10am
Meanwhile, jc9 is singlehandedly dominating the Pacific Northwest Outrigger world!
#6 Sun, 08/02/2009 - 11:44am
Errrr. You may notice the results in the northwest have not changed the past couple seasons. I have had no appreciable effect on the results.
Back to the subject at hand. Congrats to Outriggers men too. The youngbuck flexes his muscles!!!
#7 Sun, 08/02/2009 - 12:46pm
I noticed Keahou's Seniopr Men DQ'ed again does anyone know what happened this time? Why don't they specify what violation warranted a DQ in the results.
Congrats to everybody who made states this year, the most people I've ever seen at Bayfront. The conditions were epic and all the lanes looked pretty even across the board.
Mahalo Nui to Kai Opua for borrowing us their Koa for our Open Mix race again. We were super stoked for that, even though we lost two of our crew members hours before our race, we hope we did Hualalai proud.
Mahalos to Keone and Laurie for stepping in at the last minute you guys rock.
Chad stay up brother we're all there for you and your family. Love you, man.
Mahalo to Carolina for spearheading the food booth, that was truly amazing.
Thanks to all of our club members for all the hard work yesterday.
Congrats to the Novice B girls and 13 boys and all our coaches.
This is what it's all about, OHANA.
Now on to distance see u at the Lilioukalani.
Work hard and great things happen.
#8 Sun, 08/02/2009 - 12:50pm
Fluidpaddler-
Kai Opua Mahalos you and Na Waa Hanakahi in allowing to have two of our Koa canoes to be on the same race course at the same time. Our assistance is our pleasure.
Aloha.
#9 Sun, 08/02/2009 - 1:15pm
hi there fluidpaddler:
To see the reason for a DQ simply roll your mouse over the DQ on the results page and a tooltip will appear with the reason for the DQ. Hope that helps!
Jonathan
#10 Sun, 08/02/2009 - 1:59pm
thanks Jonathan that's pretty slick.
Is there login problem at HCRA website I used the instructions and can't login.
Thank you
#11 Sun, 08/02/2009 - 3:30pm
fluidpaddler:
send your first and lastname to sysadmin at hcrapaddler.com and I will look into it...
Jonathan
#12 Sun, 08/02/2009 - 4:01pm
As for the DQ-
this is something that the officials need to address-
Keahou apparently is a threat to some and the only way to retaliate
is to DQ. We wonder why our sport can only go so far.
#13 Sun, 08/02/2009 - 9:01pm
I don't mean to offend any official who made the call but I hope someone can share some thoughts on this ...
how much can a boat holder, who is in water, contribute to the forward momentum of a 400+ pound canoe with 6 x 160+ pound paddlers sitting in that canoe if he/she has nothing to brace him/herself against while pushing that canoe with his/her arm in the overhead position?
#14 Sun, 08/02/2009 - 9:23pm
if the boat holder is strong enough to push the boat that well from the water - he doesn't belong in the water but in the boat.
It's a shame, keahou ran a mean race.
#15 Sun, 08/02/2009 - 10:15pm
i guess the way I think about it, its like pushing an over sized luggage into an overhead bin in an airplane - the only difference being you're not standing on a solid/firm surface to brace against.
#16 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 12:00am
S2THEB Even in the sport of paddling its not what you know but who you know!!
#17 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 12:15am
It's ironic....maybe about 7 or 8 years ago Outrigger got DQed in States because a boatholder was giving canoes a push on the start. The boatholder was Jimmy Austin who was in the Outrigger crew that got the default win Saturday.
#18 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 6:14am
the classic twist is that they went to the video to see if they could see the boat holder pushing the boat and they couldn't. total joke of officiating -
#19 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 7:10am
With fins on a boat holder can give a pretty good boost, in my experience. It always seemed like everyone kinda did it, back then.
#20 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 7:19am
kamamakakaua:
I believe that the rule was introduced because it is possible to stand on the bottom in lanes 1 and 2 when the tide is low in Ke'ehi lagoon. A boat holder who can brace his feet on the bottom can influence a canoe's acceleration.
It is unfortunate that this rule is applied in other venues, where boat holders cannot brace their feet on the bottom. In theoretical terms any force that the holder generates will accelerate him/her in the opposite direction at 10 times the acceleration provided to the canoe (canoe mass ~1600lbs, holder mass ~160lbs). If you assume that a holder can generate about 10% of the force that a paddler can, then you are talking about an acceleration of 1% of that created by one paddler for one stroke.
In practical terms the holder is more likely to retard the acceleration of the canoe by holding it back or altering its direction.
Given that the maximal impact of deliberate pushing is so insignificant it seems to be counter-productive to have a judgment call rule that is unverifiable, almost impossible to overturn, and thus so open to the perception of abuse.
Jonathan
#21 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 7:20am
The rules do say that the boat holders cannot assist in the forward motion at the start. How many boats can the official boats watch at the start? Maybe 1 or 2 at the most. Who will they watch? Is it at the officials discretion or is it a boat that is randomly selected? If the rules cannot be equitably enforced then there should be additional rules in place to make sure that the officials cannot show bias. Even if there is no bias, there will always be allegations of bias if officials in the boats choose which boat holders to watch. Have a random selection of who will be watched and then record it on video to prove the allegation. One DQ for boat holder violation all day long is a little suspicious.
#22 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 7:43am
Is States the only venue this boat pushing rule applies?
#23 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 7:46am
there are many possible solutions. one might be not using a boat holder.
if you're concerned about going over the line, have someone swim in the lane in front of you and tell you if you are going over.
#24 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 8:00am
fluidpaddler:
Some HCRA member associations use the rule, others do not.
Jonathan
#25 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 8:24am
fluidpaddler:
You can download the race rules for HCRA, OHCRA, and MOKU from their web sites. I am not sure about the other associations. They are all a bit different, I didn't even see a section on holders in MOKU, but I only skimmed it.
Jonathan:
I love the finish line pictures that you are adding to the results page.
#26 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 8:33am
Good memory Lowtide, I remember that. Some people were
pretty mad.
#27 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 8:58am
Kaiwiki:
I am glad someone is looking at them as they are a pain to produce!
The FinishLynx software has a "Save to .jpg" option but our files are huge and it takes an hour to process one event and the file produced is 100MB+, so instead I construct an image from screenshots and piece them together. In the FinishLynx system itself the resolution is, of course, much better.
Jonathan
#28 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 9:04am
Jonathan-
this software you speak so highly of- show us a couple picks from the start
and lets see how difficult it is to see a canoe in lane 10 being pushed.
#29 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 9:08am
konapaddler:
As I mentioned in an earlier post the pushing call is not verifiable by any technology that we use. I suppose we could require holders to wear gloves with pressure sensors in them!
The FinishLynx system takes a photo of the finish/start line one pixel wide and 2000 pixels high 1000 times a second, and then butts those images together to produce the image you see on the results page. The holder does not move through the plane of the start line and thus is usually not seen. Only elements passing through the plane of the start line are visible.
Jonathan
#30 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 9:29am
Fakarava,
Who were they mad at, the officials or Jimmy?
#31 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 9:32am
Of course the obvious solution is to tell the boat holders not to push the canoes at the start.
#32 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 10:23am
I'm curious how someone in the water can help a boat start when they are looking the opposite direction?? I'm new to 6 man but this kind of "judging" reminds me a lot of the judging style in boxing - prwtty unfair. Can anyone reall say an unprovable judgment call from the beach to lane 10 is fair?
#33 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 10:30am
they were going to DQ Keahou from the start (no pun intended).
they DQ them 2 weeks ago in the Senior Mens race after they
won for misplacing names and Kai O pua
cried to the officials. So again, he says, she says, but no video proof of any wrong doing- love it!
#34 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 10:33am
I agree with everyone....what a lame, lame DQ for Keauhou in the Senior race. It was obvious that some official had an ax to grind. I don't agree with what that so called Live Strong gang is doing on the big island, by that I mean they bounce around from club to club (Kai Opua, Kai I Hitu, Tui Tonga, Keauhou, who's next?). But, I one thing about them, they can flat out paddle...you gotta admit that and recognize that. So, to DQ them for something so manini, that according to Newton's third law of motion is physically impossible to do in the water, and to say that that little push (if any forward momentum was generated at all) contributed to the win after paddling 1 and a half miles....that is so outrageous...
I fee sorry for the paddlers and the effort they put out. From our vantage point, they were behind Outrigger in the last quarter coming home to the finish, and they tracked them down and passed them. Awesome....for the team. Beautiful to watch. Almost reminded me of the epic come from behind win Lanikai had last year I think in the Soph or Jr. race. Canoe paddling at its finest!!
JawsOut.
#35 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 11:13am
kayaker_1:
All coaches are reminded of this and they pass it on to all boat holders. As has been mentioned, the call is non-verifiable (short of swimming out with a force gauge).
konapaddler:
I cannot accept the accusation that this call was a deliberate attempt to knobble a specific crew. Officials are unpaid volunteers who do this for the love of the sport. It is inconceivable to me for someone to be so petty minded that they would make an official call specifically to benefit their own club.
Jonathan
#36 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 11:32am
Keahous women masters 60 DQ for the same thing the very next race. Same swampers?
#37 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 12:16pm
Konapaddler-
Kai Opua did not cry about it! It was me, Eddie Hayward, who challenged a call that was announced over the official sound system that was not aligned with what I saw with my eyes after the Sophmore race. Therefore, I asked for clairification for that situation. Johnathan, in charge of camara, said that the line up that was announced was the exact same crew, bullshit! So, I was able to have the Tribune-Hearld sport editor who was taken photos that day to show the TRUTH which he had in hand of that crew and race. That picture was never taken into account and the decision stood. Sundays sports section shows clearly that what I was right about was denied by an " official " call.
As for the Senior mens race, when a name is announced twice over the sound system ( soph and junior ) and that same individual climbs into the senior race, which equals 3rd race of the day, and yes that was only his second offical race, that is when we asked how is that possible which resulted in a DQ. That Senior race could have been a clean race if my source was taken into account which would have the Keauhous mens coach re-look at the line ups to make sure all was good for the rest of the day for them. I guess I was more of helping than hurting if you really look at it.
If that is crying then I hate to see what you think what a tantrum is. So, I say and have photo and proof of wrong doing and still not considered.
At times, offical calls are correct and at times they are not. Some of us are looked at as being cry babies when we go to the officails for clairification and some of us think of officails as cowards for foolish calls and wish they were not around to officiate.
#38 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 2:51pm
there was an earlier comment/question about how clubs would have done if only the top places counted towards overall division championships. Hawaiian's coach/stat man extordinare showed me a vareity of different ways he has examined the results. One way was to look at how many of the top clubs had crews in the top 6. Hawaiian had 26; Kai Opua and Kailua had 18; Lanikai, OCC, and Keahou had 17; Hui Nalu 11 and Puna 8.
With this simple glance at the big clubs, looks like first place would not have changed, but the results of the next 5 places could have been different.
Another way to look at the results are average points per crew entered. In this case, it is much closer with three clubs averaging over 9 points: OCC 9.71; Keahou 9.69; and Hawaiian 9.59. Of the big clubs, the next 3 were Kai Opua 8.19; Kailua 8.14; and Lanikai 8.03.
Having done similar analyses over many beers over many years, it is clear that the quantity of crews entered is important but ultimately it is the overall quality of all the crews that wins the championship.
#39 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 5:06pm
To compare it with how it used to be done you would only award points for 1st through 4th on a 5-3-2-1 basis.
#40 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 6:48pm
not sure how far back you are going, but before the scoring went 14 deep, it was 9 deep, as I remember 1st place was worth 10 points (could have been 8 deep, like I said before, there's been a lot of beers)
as I recall, they went to the 14 deep scoring system since there were a lot of smaller clubs that could go home with 0 points if they didn't crack the top 9 (or 8)
turns out that the new scoring really separates the field, and allows for rewarding competition amongst the smaller clubs
gone are the days when Hanalei could win the whole enchalata with just a handful of top quality crews
#41 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 8:21pm
mbsski:
At the risk of seeming self-serving below are the results using the 5321 scoring system. RaceDay (the registration and results software) make generating "what-if" scenarios very easy.
I should also point out that I believe that the current scoring system has enabled us to grow the popularity of the sport by rewarding participation, I fully support it, and would vote against any change.
Having said that...
Keauhou Canoe Club 49 AAAA
Outrigger 45 AAAA
Hawaiian Canoe Club 40 AAAA
Kai Opua Canoe Club 32 AAAA
Lanikai 27 AAAA
Kailua 24 AAAA
Hui Nalu 18 AAAA
Puna Canoe Club 21 AAA
Hui Lanakila 14 AAA
Kaneohe 12 AAA
Kihei Canoe Club 11 AAA
Hanalei 1 AAA
Waikiki Beach Boys 22 AA
Keaukaha Canoe Club 16 AA
Lae'ula O Kai 12 AA
Keahiakahoe 12 AA
Wa'akapaemua 7 AA
Healani 5 AA
Na Keiki O Ka Mo'i 2 AA
Koa Kai 0 AA
Kamehameha Canoe Club 0 AA
Napili 13 A
Tui Tonga 7 A
Kawaihae Canoe Club 5 A
Wailea 5 A
Na Wa'a Hanakahi 5 A
Kai 'Ehitu 3 A
Kalihi-Kai 3 A
Kamehameha 3 A
Makaha 3 A
Waikiki Surf Club 2 A
Na Kai 'Ewalu 2 A
North Shore 2 A
Leeward Kai 1 A
'Alapa Hoe 1 A
Manu O Ke Kai 1 A
Kilohana 1 A
Lahaina 1 A
Hawaiian Outrigger Canoe Club 1 A
Kahana Canoe Club 0 A
Lokahi 0 A
New Hope 0 A
Ka Mamalahoe Canoe Club 0 A
Keoua Canoe Club 0 A
Kaiola 0 A
Anuenue 0 A
KEOLA O KE KAI 0 A
WAIMANALO 0 A
Pukana O Ke Kai 0 A
Molokai 0 A
Kumulokahi-Elks 0 A
Honolulu Pearl Canoe Club 0 A
Namolokama 0 A
Kona Athletic Club 0 A
Hui Wa'a O Waiakea 0 A
Niumalu 0 A
Pu'uloa Outrigger 0 A
Interestingly, such a scoring system has an impact on all the division results though its greatest impact is on the AAAA division.
Jonathan
#42 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 8:36pm
no question that Keauhou and OCC had the best day in terms of quality
using the simple avg pts per crew approach yeilded almost the same results
obviously, Keauhou's quality scores would have been more impressive without the "judgement" call in the Seniors (by the way if the holder was really trying to push the boat, he should read the comments above and realize how silly his push was, a good yell might have been more effective)
#43 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 9:12pm
This entire blog and all the people involved pointing fingers and whining need to remember the TRUE warriors who started this great sport and why we continue the tradition today. Its a shame what the coaches, officials, and crews are doing to such an amazing sport! If you win, be humble. If you lose, accept it and come back next time. Officials, quit disgracing the sport with shady calls. Coaches, get your acts together. And paddlers, stop this poor sportsmanship bs! This is NOT what paddling is about and this is NOT what we should be passing down to the future generations!
If you need help understanding, try Hawai'i 78 by IZ
#44 Mon, 08/03/2009 - 10:03pm
jj:
i just love the pics on the results page and also i noticed are there 2 kamehameha clubs or is there a typo?
#45 Tue, 08/04/2009 - 9:00am
Hey Jonathan...
Very interesting results for the 5,3,2,1 system. I like that old system. It rewards quality. Although our club dropped a couple places in this system, I like the fact that quality gets rewarded. I will also agree with you that the current scoring system encourages participation. Our club for sure sent mediocre crews to the states in an effort to score points. We were shooting for top half...7th or better. Didn't work, but a whole bunch of kids got rewarded with a state championship race. Thousands to send the kids to Hilo, priceless the experience they gained.
The way the states is set up right now and unless the people on Maui wise up and start spreading themselves out to the other clubs on Maui, I don't see Hawaiian CC ever losing a state regatta again. They will always come to states very deep (qualifying the most number of crews) and very competitive. Last year was a hiccup and it took a DQ to reward Lanikai the win. I don't see Hawaiian ever losing a state regatta again. At least not in the near future. Kai Opua and now Keauhou might present a threath, but I don't think so.
Maika'i Hilo....great state race. Course was the best I've seen it and I have been going to Hilo for state races since the 70's. Now, if we can just do something about the length of the state regatta day.....finishing the state regatta at 6:30 at night is not a good idea. We gotta do something about that.
One more thing...Jonathan...great job on the HCRA website and everything you bought to HCRA technology wise, to make things better. Appreciate your work.
JawsOut.
#46 Tue, 08/04/2009 - 10:00am
Jonathan, I ditto that on Jaws comments - the time and effort you put into that http://hcrapaddler.com/ website is very much appreciated! Having the ability to look through the results of every single race and the rosters of each crew and fastest times etc. is very useful. Mahalo nui for all your time and effort and great job to you and the staff in Hilo for putting together an awesome States regatta!!
#47 Tue, 08/04/2009 - 10:32am
ialp:
There are two clubs named for Kamehameha. Kamehameha Canoe Club is a member of Moku O Hawai'i and is based in Hilo. Kamehameha is a member of Hui Wa'a and paddles out of the Ala Wai.
Jonathan
#48 Tue, 08/04/2009 - 11:26am
Many thanks for the words of support on the website.
We are now approaching 20,000 visitors a month of whom about 500 actually login (the others are making use of information for which no login is required such as results, States information, finding club locations etc.)
If you have ideas for other information or services that can be offered let me know.
Power to the paddlers!
Jonathan
#49 Tue, 08/04/2009 - 11:37am
We all know who won the Sr. Mens race! Congrats to Keahou Sr. Men. We definitely have our work cut out for us at OCC, but well b ready to go and looking forward to a rematch in three weeks come Kona.
As far as all the B.S. with this whole boat holding system. You don't see any problem with starts in the Hamilton Island sprint races. No Boat holders and a simple system to start the races. I think this would solve all your problems. If you need boat holders for the kids I would be fine with that. We didn't use boat holders in half the races this season just because it is a lot less to worry about.
Also I believe that the regatta scoring system in the AAAA division should go back to the original 5,3,2,1 system. Then for the AAA you do the top 7, & AA top 10, and A top 14 like it currently is. This I believe would reward the clubs with the strengths of their programs and not with how many races there entered in.
#50 Tue, 08/04/2009 - 12:59pm
Jonathan,
I noticed that you even include the starting picture for the events that had a starting line infraction DQ (eg. Jr. Men). That's great! How is the software synced with the drop of the red flag? Is that a manual input or is there a separate camera to help define the start? The finish line camera only records 1 pixel wide so the start boat won't show up. Just curious.
#51 Tue, 08/04/2009 - 2:08pm
If that is the case, then each paddler can only be allowed to race one race and not two at States, but only kids can double up. This here will allow for the 5,3,2,1 point system to be fully legit allowing other clubs who may not be deep with talent, but deep with numbers or the lack of numbers, to show case their strenghts where is it highly being dominated by the clubs who double up with their talented group. Who has the best one hitter quitter Freshman, Soph, Jr, Sr, Master, 50, 55, 60 and Mixes?
In order to get something you gotta give up something.
#52 Tue, 08/04/2009 - 2:46pm
Kaiwiki:
FinishLynx allows for a number of automated start systems, pistols, chute doors, etc. As we use flags the start is a manual button synced to the starting flags. On those images where a start is shown the vertical red line indicates the startline at zero time. Any canoe with its nose across this red line was over the line.
Bear in mind that the operating procedure for use of the FinishLynx system this year was that it was to be used to verify manual calls. Thus, if an over the start line call was made by an official the FinishLynx system would override that call if it was incorrect. However, DQ calls were not made solely on the basis of the FinishLynx system without an initial over the line call by an official. Thus, you may notice on some occasions when the starting line infraction image is included more than the DQed crew(s) are over the start line.
If you scour the images carefully you will notice a couple of missed over the start line infractions. I should mention that at least a half dozen official calls were overturned on the basis of the FinishLynx images.
It is my hope that rules changes will allow the FnishLynx system to be the first arbiter, but that will be up to the clubs at the HCRA AGM.
Interestingly, there are no over the start line calls that could have been made on any of the races that did not include the start line in the images I posted, and all those were for events where an over the start line was called by an official. This leads me to believe that a major cause of over the start line faults is the way other canoes are lined up!
Jonathan
#53 Tue, 08/04/2009 - 2:51pm
wow, it is awesome to have the pics and technology provided by jonathan
there are so many variables at play in paddling, it is nice to have the finish line results accurately portrayed
I agree with "ipaddlefor", after the fact complaining about official calls and perceived influencing is a bunch of bs. But I don't agree that the entire blog is a bunch of bs.
After the fact analysis in order to try and improve performance, ability, knowledge, judging, etc is all about being Hawaiian, don't try to tell me for a second that striving for perfection is not Hawaiian
Analysis of results from a different perspective or scoring system is healthy, maybe it helps soothe the pain of "loosing" or not "winning", hopefully, and more importantly, it helps develop perspective and a sense of humbleness.
For me, a meaningful part of this experience came from explaining to a group of 12 and 13 year olds that sometimes you might have done everything to be the best prepared you could be, maybe you were the strongest crew out there (don't count on it), but still things may not have gone your way, whether it be because of ocean conditions or currents, deity influence or some other human error (coaching, crew selection, airline delay, officiating, boat holding, blah blah blah ...)
Unfortunately, for some, the Hilo races were deep and meaningful from an entirely different level. We should all count our blessings and rejoice in what a wonderful day of culture and sport it was.
#54 Tue, 08/04/2009 - 11:14pm