I'm considering buying a new OC1, I live in AZ where its very hot much of the time and with that being considered what are your thoughts on a canoe built using vinyl ester, Kevlar and fiberglass? I'm going to use the canoe mostly here in lakes and some in Southern Ca.. I want the canoe to be a litter tougher vrs having an ultra light canoe.
Good idea or ?
Thanks
Submitted by K9 on Wed, 08/05/2009 - 6:18pm
Vinyl ester is usually hard to get, unless a fiberglass shop will sell it to you. But doing repairs with epoxy will do just fine, so no problem and no worries.
#1 Thu, 08/06/2009 - 2:21am
My understanding is that epoxy pre preg lay ups have no problems dealing with extreme heat, a definite consideration in AZ.
#2 Thu, 08/06/2009 - 2:42am
As long as they are post cured @ elevated temps.
Better to chose lighter colors too.
Forgot where I read it but the 'underground' industry standard for a layups ability to withstand extreme heat is based on someplace in AZ. You would think Death Valley but I believe the spot is Tuscan, mid summer, peak temps. Build to this and your o.k.
The Vinylester is gonna have a pretty good HDT so should be fine .. even if it was not post cured .. It will get it out by you.
Just be careful not to leave it strapped down on the racks for too long ... even it you go in for lunch, good idea to bump the straps loose just a bit if the daytime temps are over say 75 - 80. If light colored, no need.
Make sure it has a vent too, not only dropping it into cold water but if you drive up to the mountiains.
aloha,
pog
#3 Thu, 08/06/2009 - 3:25am
Vinyester can be used to make good quality product,in impact resistance its superior to most epoxys,gelcoats are easy to use ,it can be much more temperature resistant( up 140°C with postcure) than epoxy .Most epoxy have Tg around only 70-80°C so any dark color ,natural carbon finish can and does heat up close to that. But there are also some limitations to vinyester ,it cures fast (potlife usualy less than 30min-1hour )so hard to use with vacum unless infusing it good to have 2-3 people on the lamination ,if you are slow laminating you end up with much heavier boat just because the bottom layers are already hardening while you are still laminating the top layers.,shrinkage is round 4% so more print trough on heavier fabrics ,SAN(corecell) cores and styrofoam melt when exposed to it,smells like hell ,carbon inhibits the reaction so it hardens much slower with carbon laminate .
So vinlyester Oc-1 would defiently be beter siuted to high heat ,but most are now made in epoxy and are light colored so work wery well
#4 Thu, 08/06/2009 - 1:29pm
Just to note, Im not going to build the canoe but rather have a canoe built by a manufacturer.
Thanks for the replys and information.
#5 Thu, 08/06/2009 - 2:46pm
Then he will probably build as he does normaly ,as switching materials for a single build is uncomon and dificoult
#6 Thu, 08/06/2009 - 11:38pm
canoemaker: try adding DMA, DEA and acetal acetone to extend VE resin pot life and still effect cure. Five to seven hours pot life is possible
#7 Fri, 08/07/2009 - 1:28pm
Yeh but ... do you wanna be in the room that long : )
goodwaka ... what percentage are you using ?
thanks.
aloha,
pog
#8 Fri, 08/07/2009 - 1:51pm
Omno: Last time i used that mix was years ago....the ratios are recorded and stashed away somewhere that is not easy to find now. Quicker way to get the info is to ask a resin manufacturer and play around with test pots.
7 hours was great to lay up a product and build a bag for a complex part.
#9 Fri, 08/07/2009 - 4:31pm
No worries, only using epoxys but always looking for pro-info to log in.
aloha,
pog
#10 Fri, 08/07/2009 - 4:53pm
Pay attention on epoxy resin builded moulds, not every epo system is styrene resistant
#11 Fri, 08/07/2009 - 8:32pm
Conversely, every polystyrene is not epoxy resistant either.
NOT BS-ing to be a dick here either.
aloha,
pog
#12 Fri, 08/07/2009 - 11:01pm
When i build in vinylester i mostly infuse and that only takes cca 30 min .We have many types of inhibitors provided by manufacturers to slow down the reaction but all also degrade quiality,also the posibility of 'elefant' skin on light thin polyester gelcoat is proportional to gel time ,but now days you can infuze almost anything so why bother vith dirty wet lamination when you can make a superior product in infusion.
#13 Mon, 08/10/2009 - 2:36am
" why bother with dirty wet lamination"
What seemed at the time to be reasonable was this -- a product that was lightweight and able to withstand high temprature in processing as well as have impact reistance, when good laminators were available to do the job for a song.
Once the first part had been made in the A side of mould the B mould side with vacuum seal flanges was completed, the slightly heavier primer coated parts were infused in three minutes flat.
Working with wet resin is very much part of what i do........building internal structure, repairs etc. Can't find a way to build boats without the wet stuff.
#14 Mon, 08/10/2009 - 11:00am
So with the conditions here in Arizona (hot) would it be fair to say the a boat built using Vinylester is going to be the best choice? or should I still consider a conventional built boat?
#15 Mon, 08/10/2009 - 6:16pm
K9, Its the process we got going on about here ... a boat built w/vinylester IS conventional when it comes to material useage. Polyester would be unconventional IMO these days.
aloha,
pog
#16 Tue, 08/11/2009 - 9:22am
If lightweight is the most important thing to you and cost is not an issue, then go with the conventional epoxy/carbon job.
If on the other hand you can live with e few Kg's extra but prefer the hulls skin profile to hold its shape, then the high spec VE is good.
Years ago before epoxy/carbon became the generally accepted standard, my research found that high performance offshore powerboats like the Cigarette make, were using Ve resin.
#17 Tue, 08/11/2009 - 10:02am
Oh yeh! canoes that i have made with VE resin are good and durable too. A 23 foot long canoe with 3 Kg's of gelcoat on the hull weighed 12.5 Kg's.... the ama kiato and lashings weighed a few more Kg's.
#18 Tue, 08/11/2009 - 10:07am
In a shed of 100 canoes, we have only one that is made out of Vinylester Resin. You can smell it as soon as you enter the shed, and it's 2 years old. Boy do they stink, but is a very stiff durable OC1. I think the manufacturer uses it for the curing control it offers.
R
#19 Wed, 08/12/2009 - 11:53am
I think I smelt that canoe when I visited last year, are you sure a cat didn't piss in the drain hole!
#20 Thu, 08/13/2009 - 11:30am