Time penalty @ MOLO for not having matching jerseys?
Who else thinks this is a waste of time & energy?
Was every single crew reminded of this new rule @ registration? nope
Can you tell my canoe club is gonna be penalized? yep
Submitted by KONASARAH on Sun, 10/11/2009 - 7:11pm
At coach's meeting everyone was told that must have matching jerseys.
#1 Sun, 10/11/2009 - 7:26pm
I dont dispute that they were told at the coaches meeting but what crews could get matching uniforms within a day. I know our club didnt have matching jerseys because they used all their funds to pay their way to Molokai. This is a waste of time. It should of been made known in capital letter on website.
#2 Sun, 10/11/2009 - 7:38pm
•Beginning in 2008, ALL paddlers will be issued an official WRIST BAND which must be worn at all times during the course of the race. This is MANDATORY and will be issued when final crew list is submitted.
•2009 - All crews must be in complete CREW uniform at the START and COMPLETION of the race. Crews not in full uniform will be penalized.
OMG! This is crazy! I never saw this before. I had to find it myself cause I was thinking - this ain't Tahiti - what are they talking about.
Personally - I like to wear what I am used to and what is comfortable - it may or may not be the team jersey - and yeah - funding, not realistic for some crews. I think this is going a bit too far to what, catch cheaters? They better not do this to the wahine race.
#3 Sun, 10/11/2009 - 8:09pm
Is this the "time penalties" that were rumoured to be holding up the final results?
which teams were penalized?
personally... I think the rule is bulls**t.
#4 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 5:20am
What a silly rule.
#5 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 6:24am
SCORA added this rule a few years back and I also bitched about how stupid it was. But from the viewpoint of growing the sport and getting exposure and getting sonsors there is something to be said for having crews match up. It comes out better in photos and TV. But it would suck to get that sprung day before race.
Now whether it's better to remain a niche sport- that's another debate.
#6 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 6:54am
There's very little to be said for an event sponsor to gain from having crews dress the same unless they are going to provide jerseys like in the HVA Race Around the Hat or the Aito series of races in Tahiti with their logo on them. Otherwise if Hinano beer was still sponsoring the Moloka'i Hoe they probably would not have enjoyed Team Primo coming in second. This is a silly rule and if penalties are assessed for it, I think those crews should simply claim their crew uniform consists of non-specific "clothing" since last I checked no one does this race in the nude…
#7 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 7:27am
deleted
was looking at wrong pics
#8 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 8:27am
I'm usually always against extra regulation, but I think it was made pretty clear in the race packet, the race rules online, and the race meeting. Like Cho said, I think that the motivation was to have the race look more "professional" than it would have without matching jerseys, so that sponsors would be more keen to come on board. As far as funding concerns, a plain white t-shirt can cost about $2, and you only need to wear it at the start and finish.
As long as the results have a notation that says that a time penalty was assessed, so that everyone can know where they really finished--- does the penalty really matter?
#9 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:08am
From the Advertiser article...
"More than 20 crews received a 10-minute penalty for various rules violations."
Anyone have details?
Would love to know actual finishing order and time (pre "penalties")
#10 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 10:00am
i got to agree with luke on this one. i was escorting a crew form the mainland and they all showed up with matching jerseys. now if they knew about it up there then i'd say the information definitely got out.
as an observer at Hale O Lono, it was pretty cool to see all the different clubs and teams walking around together in uniform and be able to recognize the guys from canada, russia, tahiti and japan. i know the jerseys can be thought of as an added expense, but i'm always stoked to have another jersey that i can use for a year before it gets all nasty from sitting in the back of my truck. i know my wife appreciates the new non-stink shirt too.
#11 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 10:34am
In Tahiti it's mandatory when the race organisers give T-shirts to wear them during the race. If not you can wear what you want. Those t-shirts or jerseys show the sponsors of the race...
For hawaiki nui you can even get them 2 weeks before, you can then print what you want (club name, logo, sponsor, whatever) on the back of the shirts... except you can't print the name of a company that is a competitor of the official sponsor.
#12 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 11:36am
I don't think the jersey thing is that huge a rule. I mean, Luke made a good point only the start and finish had to have people wearing the same thing. Its not a huge cost. And I know that the time penalty might suck but its something that can easily avoided by choice, its not a line call or a missed turn. Its a penalty that you can totally avoid before the race even starts.
#13 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 11:52am
What a dumb rule. The Na wahine and Molokai Hoe claims that they are cutting back on cost which they cannot give out too many prizes, BUT they expect everyone to go buy new jerseys for this one race.
I like the idea of uniform, but this should have been made VERY clear about two months ago, maybe on OC paddler, so crews can get their expenses in order.
For the order of finish, I heard that the crews that finished in the top 30 are correct. Everything else has there after been changed.
Congrats to all!
#14 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 12:19pm
Is there a rule that says you have to have MOLOKAI jerseys, I mean do you have to have brand new jerseys printed up specifically for this one race. If not then why don't you just race in your regular club jerseys the one you got at the beginning of regatta.
#15 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 12:35pm
It may not be a popular rule but it IS A RACE RULE that was there for all to see. If crews are penalised for ignoring this rule then they only have themselves to blame. Don't complain about the rule after the event. If a team from the mainland can abide by it surely the locals can in the biggest race of the year?
We have the same rule here in Aus. At the Nationals recently, a crew was DQ'd (we don't have time penalties only DQ after you cross the finish line) because one paddler was wearing the previous years club jersey which was a different colour to the current one! Talk about officialdom gone mad but they knew the rules and suffered accordingly.
Surely the jersey issue would only affect those non-Club crews? If the majority of competitors are Club crews then they should all have Club jerseys anyway?
Given that the current economic climate is making it even harder to attract sponsors, is it any wonder organisers want to put on a 'professional' event which includes teams looking like teams. Name a team sport that doesn't require a uniform of some description.
If it's such a big deal, then get some support from like-minded competitors and approach the organisers to get rid of the rule otherwise, live with it.
My 2c worth.
#16 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 12:46pm
Sure... it's a rule and everyone should have followed it.
It doesn't mean it's not a ridiculous (dumb, silly, pointless, stupid) rule.
Next year are we going to have rules like in World Sprints where if one paddler is wearing a white baseball hat everyone has to be?
Why create rules that are not about a fair and equitable event?
If you finished third and ended up getting awarded second because the person in seat five in the second finisher wasn't wearing the right hat - how would you feel about your medal?
Asterixes suck.
#17 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 1:43pm
What tpoppler said.
It's not like you have to go print up a new jersey for the race. Wear your club jerseys, if you don't have one and don't want to buy one surely there is someone in the club who can lend you one for the race?
Worlds was a bit much with the hats and rumors that sunglasses had to be the same but they were very clear about how any clothing above the gunnel of the canoe had to be the same... (and sunglasses were exempt btw)
#18 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 2:03pm
If a sponsor wants to step up and spend the funds for all to have a jersey then I think it is the least we can all do to wear the damn thing on race day. I agree that everyone wearing the same jersey at the start and finish could really help to attract sponsors as well as show who is in attendance. If it was in the rules ahead of time, then you shoulda read the rules. This isn't elementary school.
#19 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 2:20pm
it's online, was mentioned at the pre race meeting, and in the registration packet. is it good rule? i dunno...but it was certainly announced. just have to click on the RACE RULES link at left of this page: http://molokaihoe.org/
"A. ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
MUST SUBMIT COMPLETED ENTRY FORM APPLICATION BY THE SPECIFIED DEADLINE DATE.
MUST SUBMIT ALL MOLOKAI HOE WAIVER FORMS BY THE SPECIFIED DEADLINE DATE.
MUST ATTACH HCRA CANOE SPECIFICATION FORM. THIS FORM MUST BE RECEIVED BEFORE CANOES ARE SHIPPED TO MOLOKAI. NON-COMPLIANCE WITH THIS RULE WILL RESULT IN REFUSAL OF TRANSPORTING CANOE TO MOLOKAI.
MUST PAY ENTRY FEE BEFORE CANOE IS SHIPPED TO MOLOKAI. THE RACE DIRECTOR WILL ASSIGN THE CANOE SHIPPING DATE FOR EACH ENTRY.
THE MOLOKAI HOE COMMITTEE WILL ACCESS A LATE FEE OF 100% TO ANY ENTRIES RECEIVED AFTER THE DEADLINE DATE.
IT IS MANDATORY THAT THE COACHES OF EACH PARTICIPATING CREW ATTEND THE COACHES MEETING HELD THE DAY BEFORE THE RACE. THE CREW MAY BE DISQUALIFIED IF THE COACH DOES NOT ATTEND THE MEETING.
BEGINNING IN 2008, ALL PADDLERS WILL BE ISSUED AN OFFICIAL WRIST BAND WHICH MUST BE WORN AT ALL TIMES DURING THE COURSE OF THE RACE. THIS IS MANDATORY AND WILL BE ISSUED WHEN FINAL CREW LIST IS SUBMITTED.
2009 - ALL CREWS MUST BE IN COMPLETE CREW UNIFORM AT THE START AND COMPLETION OF THE RACE. CREWS NOT IN FULL UNIFORM WILL BE PENALIZED."
#20 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 2:53pm
How is it that there is an outrage at having to wear the same jersey at the start and finish, and no outrage at the ridiculous canoe design limitations?
#21 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 3:20pm
Open Fire !
All weapons !
#22 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 3:24pm
I was kind of wondering the same thing as Luke?
#23 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 3:26pm
I'll third that, time to open up the arbitrary design rules.
#24 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 4:11pm
if i were to take a guess, i'd be willing to bet that fairly soon people will go ahead and start racing with illegal boats and just get DQ'ed.
#25 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 4:18pm
It would be nice if some good crews stepped up and were willing to take the DQ. Not sure if I see it happening.
#26 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 4:25pm
I have tried to find 5 others who would be willing to do just that for the last 11 years....no takers. One who so attempts will be threatened with a fine, permanent suspension, physical removal from the Pacific Ocean, etc.
The canoe would have to be shipped to Moloka'i on it's own. The race committee will not ship it if they 'think' it will be used in the Channel race.
HCRA has had an "Open" class hull design in it's rules for decades. Anyone who tries to race such a canoe can be sure to face the wrath mentioned. Then why do they continue to have it a part of the rules?
I've had to "just do it" here in the Liliu'okalani race for years as I don't race for medals. I race for the fun of racing in racing canoe designs. The good thing is, if race organizers don't intend to recognize you as an official entry, why pay their entry fee....just race.
Rather than have to deal with the kinds of people who are closed minded and don't recognize these canoes as traditional, I'd recommend another association that promotes racing designs because they ARE traditional. Soon thereafter, all paddling athletes will be racing in this new association while others fall to the wayside. The writing is on the wall.
#27 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 6:34pm
Ya goodwaka can be the spokesperson for that new organization...
No really though, I agree, there is much more wrong with the rules than just the jerseys... I understand the jersey rule but not the rule that says we have to race canoes originally designed for fishing and the likes rather than racing... Keep workin on it Bill, I think I saw a few of your canoes in Kona and they looked awesome.
#28 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 6:33pm
It's starting to happen here in Oz. Up til now, any non-Hawaiian type design (with the exception of the Tahitian-based, locally made Southern Spirit canoe) was deemed unsuitable. After much discussion, debate, haranging & cajoling, other designs are being accepted like the Cook Islands V6 and the Mahi Mahi from NZ. Our national governing body FINALLY saw the light and looks like they'll amend the design rules at their annual meeting next month. Hooray! They're also looking at reducing the weight restrictions as well. It's the only way to keep the sport progressing. Don't give up the fight. If you want change, make it happen.
#29 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 6:44pm
Bill, you could also come to Tahiti, and build canoes here. If hawaiian paddlers don't want your pieces of art, you will find some who do like them here... ;-)
They would even wear matching jerseys if you ask...
#30 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 7:28pm
It's not a big deal, just another rule like the wrist bands, but the problem is that the wording of the rule is not explained:
2009 - ALL CREWS MUST BE IN COMPLETE CREW UNIFORM AT THE START AND COMPLETION OF THE RACE. CREWS NOT IN FULL UNIFORM WILL BE PENALIZED.”
Maybe OHCRA should have defined what they mean by 'Complete Crew Uniform' before disqualifying crews. I did not attend the coaches meeting and perhaps this was explained there, but I did not see anything in the Race Rules that defines a Complete Crew Uniform as matching jerseys or matching jock straps or anything that says 2009 Molokai Hoe crew crew etc.
Many clubs have shirts in different colors - I've seen green and white Lanikai shirts, Balck and Yellow Hui Nalu shirts, Red and White Outrigger shirts, etc.
I am not one to criticize unpaid volunteers, but if this was not explained or defined, then OHCRA should expect issues and complaints if they disqualify crews. Next year define it in writing whether it means matching shirts, shorts or tuxedos.
On the other hand, the start was good with the buffer zone, and the race started early when everyone was lined up - no one seemed to jump (maybe all the post Kona talk was listened to)
#31 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 8:39pm
Here is a question for the supporters of open design rules in Molokai and other Hawaii races. Why don't Bradley and Outrigger Connection build open class canoes and sell them in Tahiti where the rules are "Open?" If the builders in Hawaii have the knowlege and expertise to build really fast "open class" canoes, why is it that they don't build these canoes and sell them in Tahiti where there would be a huge demand for them if they were really that good. Every builder is motivated by sales and profit so it seems to me that if they had a really good design they would take it to a place where there is demand for their product.
#32 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 8:41pm
yep i can see it now, instead of everyone wondering if it's the training or if the tahatians are on drugs they'll be wondering if they lost because of canoe design. there is obviously some room for improvements as the rules are now or there would be no discusions of the advantages/disadvantages between mirages and bradleys. i would rather know that a team won or lost because of their paddling ability over their budget to design the fastest canoe. i would love to see lighter canoes, mostly because it sucks lifting 400lb canoes, but this will surely elliminate the koa division as it is very hard to build a koa canoe that is less than 400lbs.
#33 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:08pm
Hey Luke, any plans to design a six-man? Hehe..
#34 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:40pm
i'm not sure how light they are, but i'm told the price of getting a tahitian designed and built canoe is actually pretty competitive. at least from listening to a tahitian talk about this exact subject on sunday, a wood strip V-6 could be built for less than the going price of a lightning or a mirage. the V-6 price includes being fully rigged with canvas, iako, and ama.
hmmmm.
#35 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 10:01pm
The demand for 'faster' canoes is here in Hawaii as it is in other locales. Regardless of sport, athletes in all sports want to go faster, want to establish new records, etc. A Moloka'i race in a lighter (which is traditional), as well as faster designed hull (also traditional), could be accomplished iron, thereby eliminating changes. This would eliminate the hazards of a 'first change' after 30 minutes. The escort would only be necessary for safety.
There are traditional ways of building a koa canoe lighter than 400lbs. There could also be a division for the 400lb. koa canoe as well as a division for the 400lb. non-koa canoe.
Hawaiians of old built light-weight canoes specifically for racing. They also built plank canoes. What the Tahitians are doing now, is no different than what the Hawaiians have done in the past. Not many are aware of this.
I have spoken with Nappy on more than one occasion on this subject. He favors both lighter weight and faster designed canoes. He also feels the front and back manus be retained to keep the Hawaiian identity. No problem...as I've said here before, it's primarily what's below the waterline that counts.
Fiberglass canoes of faster design would not cost any more than what they cost today hence, the concern of one being out of one's budget should not be an issue.
To force a kalai wa'a (canoe builder) to build a single hull type, would stifle a culture. There's no mandate that all crew members be of equal age, height, weight, reach, ability, etc.
Of course, anyone who prefers not to indulge in faster canoes can always continue to stay with what they are happy with. To each his own.
#36 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 10:05pm
1 200 000 cfp is what you should pay for it... (approx 15 000 US$). Don't know if you find it competitive, but for us it's expensive. My club can't buy such a canoe, so we have to rent one each year for Hawaiki Nui.
Rule is that a V6 must weight 150kg during race with no more than 20 or 30kg ballast (can't remember exact ballast regulation).
#37 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 10:12pm
so my info is a bit off then.
i was told about 1 000 000 cfp for a V6
#38 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 10:16pm
1 000 000 cfp, that's what BoraBora Va'a is asking for a 2 years old 2nd hand V6 on vaatahiti.com forum
http://www.vaatahiti.com/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=29&func...
#39 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 10:22pm
jc9 0:
Hiro's price reflects the canoe being built in Tahiti. If done elsewhere, you must pay for the builders round-trip airfares, housing, ground transportation, and food for the two weeks they are at your location. This substantially increases cost.
#40 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 10:25pm
or add the price of transporting your canoe from tahiti to your location...
#41 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 10:35pm
I've asked this before, but what are cost of materials for a strip plank wa'a? Better yet, what's the approximate quantity of wood needed for a strip plank wa'a?
I'm sure the margins are slim on any type of outrigger (V1/V6/OC-6, etc.) where ever it is made, but from previous discussions, it sounds like a large part of the cost of materials for builders is getting them to Hawai'i or Tahiti. Airfares and food for two weeks and putting up the builder for two weeks in someone's guest room seems a lot cheaper than shipping everything there and then shipping the finished product back if you live in an area with plentiful raw materials.
#42 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 3:17am
I feel I am at work with this jersey issue. No problem before and now we have created a problem.
Were non-matching jerseys really a problem in previous races? NO
Did 90% of the crews wear the same jerseys anyway in previous years? YES
Were the other crews who had unmatching jerseys just put together crews? YES
Is the fact that we didn't all have matching jerseys in previous years cause HCRA to lose major endorsments? NO
I can't wait to see finishing photos of the top 30 crews to check to see if they didn't all have matching jerseys and weren't penalized. Average paddlers and crews get crushed-Top crews win.
It would be interesting if Starbucks gave $200,000 and demanded that all paddlers wear bright green and white jerseys for the start and throughout the race. Good for Lanikai. Outrigger?
#43 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 5:14am
Approximately 1,200 lineal feet of 2" wide planks are needed to build an OC-6....assuming your choice is 2" wide. Costs of different types of wood varies from location to location. Thickness of your wood also plays a role in material cost. One does not simply go to a hardwood retailer and purchase stock ready made. Boards must be milled to the builder's specifications. Some builders use 1" strips....additional milling, additional labor to build the canoe. This all adds to your costs.
Note in my prior post I mention "builders round-trip airfares"....plural. Expect a minimum crew of 2-4 if you want the canoe completed in 2 weeks. This also means the club or individual having the canoe built, must have all tools, supplies, and materials readily available for the crew. One would be quite surprised at the final cost.
#44 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 6:24am
i think the rule sucks.
To what extent does it control "uniformity?"
I assume same shirt color with same color print but does it extend beyond that?
Was my crew assessed a penalty because some of us cut off our sleeves?
Screw anybody who tries to force me to wear a sleeved jersey for a race of that duration!
By the same token, those of us who prefer a sleeveless jersey wouldn't want to force
our fair-skinned teammates who wear long sleeves for protection to paddle with sleeveless
jerseys just to conform to a stupid rule.
#45 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 7:35am
a ten minute penalty is a very harsh penalty in my opinion. I was just looking at the final results.
http://www.ohcra.com/MZ2009upload/molokai_2009_Final_Results.pdf
It doesnt really specify if infraction is for jersey violation or false start etc. but no one seems to have been penalized in the top half of the field.
For some teams that could mean a drop of ten spots in the finish order. If you were in the top 20, you You would easily drop to the 30's or 40's position which really would not reflect how you did. So maybe that is why the officials decided not to impose the penalties for the top 40 crews. Hui Nalu I seems to be the first to get the bump for what ever reason, they got the 10 min penalty.
Surprising, since they were all wearing white jersey tops! So maybe infraction is for something else???
I can see using time penalties for false starts since that would give a team an advantage in the race but i'm not sure how time penalty is reflective of jersey violations. I may be wrong be in other sports such as the NFL, a clothing violation results in a financial penalty and not penalty on the playing field.
Oh well, Hawaiki Nui next stop, it was an impressive race for Tahiti, Team Primo, Lanikai, Outrigger ....
#46 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 9:13am
Thanks for posting that link that shows which crews got penalized! Of course, there is no way to know if they were penalized for non-matching jerseys or for some other reason. Does anyone know if there are photos from the finish posted somewhere? If there are, then we could do a quick run-through to see if the non-matching crews correspond to the penalties.
I looked quickly through the photos posted at this link.
Official Molokai Hoe Shutterfly Pro Photos
There weren't many photos of the finish, so I couldn't go through them systematically. In my quick scan, I noticed this photo of the Outrigger Koa canoe (27th overall; 5:38:40; no penalty). It caught my eye since the steersman is wearing a white Outrigger jersey, while everyone else in the canoe is wearing a red Outrigger jersey, which illustrates the point that Veteran made above. I don't know if the crew crossed the finish line like that since the photo is approaching Diamond Head. If they did cross the finish line with jerseys of different colors and didn't get a penalty, then I wonder if that standard was applied uniformly. My club's 3rd crew was penalized 10 mins, I am guessing because some were wearing our blue jerseys and some were wearing our white jerseys. All jerseys were from our club, no ringers or club jumpers vying to place in the 80's!
If someone can point me to finish line photos, I would be happy to go through them to look for any mis-matched jerseys to see if they correlate to the penalties... maybe all those penalties were for some other reason???
#47 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 10:00am
The steersperson in paddling is like the Libero in Volleyball. They are an exception so that is justified :-}
At this point, its like trying to argue a ref call after the next play has already started so Im not sure it would really change the decision of the official results even with photos.
Aside from that, I don't even think the type of penalty correlates with the violation since jersey matching does not impact the overall performance of the crew, unless of course, one or more paddlers were wearing an oxygenation boosting machine that was non-matching.
And to answer your question, I saw some photos from finish and, yes, there were crews in the top half of the field that crossed the finished line without matching jerseys including Outrigger. I can count more than three off hand but
I don't want to post those photos on here since its really baffling how the penalty is assessed for the reasons I stated above. No one should have been assessed a time penalty. It should have been another form of penalty like a fine etc.
#48 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 11:13am
So our crew got the notice the morning of the race that we had to start and finish in the same jersey. We were fine with the rule because we had purchased shirts for this race, but what the rules didnt say is that we had to have the exact same type of shirts. When we purchased our shirts we purchased shirts that were cut sleeves, long Sleeves and regular sleeves. and each paddler purchased shirts that was to their liking, so when we started and finished the race we had the same color and same logos on our shirt, but some of us had different types of shirts and we got penalized 10 minutes. Now that is unfair.
#49 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 11:27am
At least your shirt colors matched - some crews that did not even have matching colors were NOT assessed an infraction according to the final results. Hence, do away with the time penalty AND make it explicitly clear because obviously, even some of the faster crews were not aware of the explicit details of the rule.
Hui Nalu I was more matching than a lot of the crews that finished before them but they were assessed an infraction so I hope it was not due to a jersey violation. if it was maybe because they had different shades of white?
#50 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 11:43am
At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, West44 - that's not unfair, that's plain rediculous!! Same color & logo but different styles and still get penalised? Officialdom gone mad!! You guys (or a representative group) need to get the Governing body or race organisers to spell out exactly what they want. Having crews in Club/Team unifoms is one thing but penalties for different sleeve lengths is laughable!
And a 10 min penalty is way too harsh for having a different style jersey to your team mate!
#51 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 11:51am
Interesting that there are no infractions in the top 50?????
#52 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 12:01pm
If the officials penalized any crew in the top 40 or so, those crews would dramatically drop in overall placing and that would seriously upset some people so they probably just went after the crews that may not be noticed in the overall results.
Can you imagine if someone from the Top 10 or Top 20 got dropped in placing for a ten minute infraction because one guy was wearing long sleeve because he's arm is sensitive to sun where as his teammate wore non-sleeve because he doesn't feel comfortable with long sleeve? OUCH
Time penalty is not logical for a jersey violation.
Rule is not explicit and clear as to what is considered "complete crew uniform"
#53 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 12:13pm
If in fact West44 is accurate in that they were penalized for having different sleeve lengths but same color jerseys and logo, then the universal unbiased enforcement of this rule throughout all 112 teams would have resulted in dramatic changes in final standings.
As an example, I looked at some photos my girlfriend took and assessed penalties to the top 15 placings as necessary based STRICTLY on "Complete Crew Uniform" violation as it APPEARS to have been applied to the crews after 50th place.
If that many crews would have been penalized, it is obvious, this rule should be reworded or elaborated on for future Moloka'i Hoe races if the rule is to be applied to everyone and not just the second half of the field OR this could serve as motivation to train harder so you don't finish in the "Infraction Zone".
The percentage of crews that would have been penalized from the first 15 finishers would be on par with the number of crews that really were penalized from 50th place on down. And highlights how ambiguous this rule is.
RED color: crews that dropped in placing
BLUE color: crews that moved up in placing
BLACK color: No change in placing
BOLD: "Complete Crew Uniform" violation infraction
This is not intended to upset anyone but raise an issue for discussion that may have future ramifications. If sleeve length did not conform to specifications as dictated by Moloka'i Hoe standards, Team Primo would have finished fourth and Tahiti would have finished in spots 1, 2, and 3.
#54 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 2:45pm
Okay....I get it....everyone wearing the same jerseys looks cool, anyone trying to bring in big sponsors wants the race to have a 'look' to it...... what I don't get is why the crews in the top 20 or was it 50 places..WERE NOT penalized...this is just UNFAIR!!! There is no other way to look at it. If the rule is there....shouldn't it apply to EVERYONE......if it doesn't, it's not a rule.....it's favortisim. I will be the first to stand on a box and cheer for any race organization that takes steps to make their race more of a success, because they love their sport! But when rules are applied, they need to be very very specific.....EVERYTHING has to be covered.....hats, shorts, shirts, sunglasses.....you see my point. I think this clothing infraction should be tossed out the window this year and if the powers that be insist on continuing with a clothing rule next year.... be more specific and fair to all those racers that take huge amounts of time and expense to be there.
#55 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 2:53pm
Technically Hui Nalu was 46th before the penalty was assessed. I think the officials forgot about the rule, and it probably came up in discussion half way through the finish. I'd like to see the "official" notes on the infractions.
#56 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 3:47pm
Hey Bill,
I will join you next year and cross in one of your canoes....now you only need 4 more!
#57 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 3:31pm
Good to know others aren't afraid to step up to reclaim the culture the way it used to be, and should be.
#58 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 3:52pm
kamamakakaua
Thanks for the info...
Imagine if team Primo had been penalized... how would you guys feel ? Would you wnt to beat that hawaiian paddler with the non matching jersey, responsible for the team not making it to the podium ?
#59 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 3:58pm
Bill, not sure I can manage to be in Hawaii, but I would love to.
BTW if I paddle with you, you'll have to forget about dreams of victory...
#60 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 4:01pm
Hey a rule is a rule. If you want to enter an event where the race organizers say, All Crews Must Play Twister With Each Other Before The Race For Teambuilding...........if you want to race you gotta follow the rules.
But make the rules concise and clear, and apply them to everyone, which doesn't appear to have happened here.
A picture of paddlers with unmatched clothing on the race website, with a big red circle/slash over it, would work wonders I'm sure!
Kamamakakaua, your ability to illustrate your point with data to back it up, my workplace needs someone like you! :)
#61 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 4:13pm
Hiro, at my age, I'll never cross the finish line first overall again. My "dreams of victory" today is having a good time racing with friends in fast canoes while perpetuating a component of my culture for generations to come.
Glad to have you on board.
#62 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 4:49pm
What specifications - there were none listed including sleeve length or color of the jersey, etc. I think OHCRA should explain what caused the time penalty for each crew penalized - maybe it was for a false start. I'm sure the OHCRA Board reads these posts. It's about time for an 'Official' explanation.
#63 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 5:24pm
Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. It is good to know that after dedicating over 600 volunteer hours alone, the work that is done to organize this prestigious race is over shadowed because of paddlers who do not understand the term UNIFORM. OIA and ILH paddling rules for YOUTH paddlers understand what uniform means....basically it is the SAME jersey. This rule was posted over 2.5 months ago and it was posted as a reminder for everyone to review the race rules. It was then discussed at the coaches meeting and YOUR COACHES and/or CLUB REP signed an agreement indicating that they understood fully the terminology of the rule.
Let's over look that for the first time in the history of the Moloka'i Hoe we were able to bring to you a LIVE web cast from the Kaiwi channel. You can't even get a phone call at Lono or basically anywhere in Moloka'i but we got to watch the 2009 crossing on our computers around the world! Let's not consider that year after year, clubs continue to disregard the rules that are posted for their SAFETY. Yes, safety. How about the size of your escort boat. Or the use of hand held radios. How about the fact that we try each year to make sure that we get shirt sizes that fit but you continue to wait until the Saturday before the race to register your crews. I have done this for the last 6 years and continue to hear the phrase, well we did it this way last year and we got away with it. When is it going to end. So we impose a penalty for a clear violation of a rule and everything good in the race is over looked.
This was the largest Moloka'i Hoe with 111 participating crews. We were able to register on line with fillable forms and you were able to fax and/or email your registration. AND STILL there are crews that decided that they would not follow the instructions which make it difficult for us to complete the registration and get the safety official boats necessary information for the race. For those of you who don't understand that while we have 40% who are competitive the other 60% are purely for participation and we welcome that but it makes it very difficult to control the safety issues of the race and that is our main priority.
Let's also not take into consideration that during these very difficult economic times we were able to bring on some new sponsors who are interested in a long term commitment. Or how about the Russians who traveled so far just to be able to experience the crossing. Let's talk about the 15, 000 people who logged on to our site to watch you all cross the channel. We are interested in hearing your suggestions, we are interested in knowing how we can improve on this race, but don't criticize with out a solution and don't whine about something irrelevant when you know what uniform means and you decided not to follow the rule. And for those of you who indicated that you would not be told what to wear because of comfort, READ closely. The rules states START AND FINISH. It didn't say the entire race...this race is known around the world as the CHAMPIONSHIP of outrigger canoe paddling. Let's start acting as if it is and appreciate the fact that you are lucky enough to be paddling in the most beautiful water in the world in one of the greatest races in the world!
Food for thought: Pure Light is an adaptive paddling crew who face daily challenges. Some are blind, have prosthetic arms and/or legs...and/or suffer some challenging disease. They were ALL in uniform.
The results will be posted shortly on www.molokaihoe.org. We are currently reviewing the images of the race to determine who was penalized and/or if we will need to recall the results. It is NOT our intent to be unfair and if we feel that there was inconsistencies in the penalties then we will publish the finish times as is without penalty. But note that the rule will not change, so instead of using that $ 20.00 to buy that 12 pack for the post race party, use it to buy a CLUB/CREW uniform shirt that will make you all look like a team.
Your comments are welcome and can be send to: info@molokaihoe.org.
Nazarene Anderson
Event Director
Moloka'i to Oahu canoe races
#64 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 10:09pm
Why was the rule for a 30-minute bonus time reduction for bravely doing the "Swahili" finish not used this year?
5:05:23 - 0:30:00 = 4:35:23...and First Place goes to Lanikai Mahoahoa!!
Next year everyone will do it (AND be in matching shirts)...
Great press on TV...not sure what the rules committee is waiting for...
Headline: "LANIKAI breaks TAHITI streak with CARNIVAL FINISH"
#65 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 11:25pm
Thank you for doing this Nazarene.
Sounds fair to me. If there were inconsistencies, like only people after a certain place get the penalty, then lots of complaining only seems natural.
On one hand, a rule is a rule and it should be followed. Duh. Silly paddlers, I don't know what you guys were thinking not getting $2 tshirts.
On the other, finish time is incredibly important for a lot of people. Paddlers want their time to reflect what they worked for all year long. Maybe they didn't spend 600 hours in preparation for the race (well perhaps Shell), but most paddlers invest quite a bit of money, hard work and effort just to compete. To see 10 minutes added to their time for having a space cadet coach is kind of a slap in the face. I mean, 10 minutes is a big deal, like training a month less, or drinking twice as much beer or smoking two joints after every practice instead of one.
Surely there must be some other way to penalize crews?
penalize.
penalize penalize penalize.
#66 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 11:43pm
OK, it may be a silly rule, but it is a rule. If the rule says make a right hand turn on bouy "XYZ" and you make a left, you broke the rule. Same distance, you still broke the rule. Most of us who do this race are racing races inside the race. "Did we beat so and so?" "How close were we to the guys who beat us last year?" "How close were we to the winners?" As long as you know your actual time, you can see where you stand. If you really are worried about your standings...follow the rules.
Kudos to Race directors who year after year put on an awesome event that were are privilaged to participate in!
Aloha,
J
#67 Wed, 10/14/2009 - 8:22am
Nazarene....thank you for the kumulipo version of the explanation of the rules. All paddlers applaud what you guys do as VOLUNTEERS, yes volunteers. The love and compassion for canoe racing that your team of volunteer's display is not in question. It seems that you overlooked the main point of discussion in this thread.....
why is it that the rule was applied for some, yet not for all when there are photo's that clearly show that several boats that crossed the line in the top 50 places, obviously did not follow the uniform rule as you so expertly pointed out. That is the question. If never have photo's, then I wouldn't be jumping on this thread, but get evidence. That is why this thing got out of hand.
I am totally for this rule. In fact, the rule should be disqualification, not 10 minute penalty. However, enforce it across the board, thats all.
JawsOut.
#68 Wed, 10/14/2009 - 9:06am
No-one is saying that the event isn't amazing.
No-one is saying that the volunteers aren't incredible.
No-one is, in any way, underestimating the effort or commitment.
We ALL have love for everyone involved in the Molokai Hoe and all treasure the opportunity.
We, in fact, care a LOT about this crossing.
So much so that we'd like to see it be as good as it can be. So when we see things that we think could be better - we mention them. It's honesty.
Many of us think the rule is stupid.
Others are concerned about enforcement of it.
Doesn't mean we think the organizers and volunteers are stupid. Doesn't mean we don't appreciate what's been done for the sport - and for us.
#69 Wed, 10/14/2009 - 9:22am
I hope this is a bad joke gone awry. If the organizers give time penalties to all the crews they deem broke the rules, then the finish order of two of Hawaii's premier paddling events will have been determined by the officials, off the water, after the race is over. I can't see how this is a good thing.
The senior mens event in the state regatta was not won by the crew that finished first across the line but by the second crew over the line. The first crew over the line was dq'd for breaking another rule of questionable merit and at the discretion of the officials. Now in Hawaii's premier event, the so called world championship of canoe paddling, if the officials impose a time penalty, they will probably alter the results for at least a third of the field, and probably more like half, when you take into account the total number of crews that move up or back. All of this for a rule that has no effect on a crew's performance.
This rule on uniforms is ostensibly to make these events appear more attractive to sponsors. I would argue that making sure the race results are decided by performance on the water and not arbitrary judgements afterwards should be the paramount concern before worrying about what people are wearing. I can't see how any company would invest the tens of thousands of dollars people are asking for into a timed racing event where the outcomes could be held up in limbo for days, if not weeks, after the race while people go over pictures of every finisher to judge if their uniforms are acceptable.
All that said, I give great thanks to the army of volunteers that make it possible for us to do the race and every race all season long. They have thankless jobs and deal with too much bs. In my experience, this race was one of the best run Molokai Hoe I've been a part of. The start was as fair as I've ever seen. The organizer's brought live race coverage to a global online community, which was unprecedented. As far as I know, there were no serious accidents/safety issues. It would be a shame to see all those positives marred by a result sheet full of asterisks.
#70 Wed, 10/14/2009 - 9:39am