New Race, New Rules?

Great article.
Lets not forget the fun factor, The faster we are able to paddle the more we can surf the bumps and propel the va'a from point A to point B. I paddle because simply put, it's plain fun and I love the excitement. I agree, Increase the fun and the sport will grow both from a spectator and paddler perspective.

As for "tradition" What is tradition, really? Is the tradition the Va'a or a set of rules that govern the weight of the va'a? Look at any old sport, golf, football, soccer, boxing, and even auto racing and visualize at the difference of those sports between now and back then. Now visualize the Va'a or V-6 and for the most part, we (Hawaii) seem to be stuck in a trough between two swells while the rest of the pacific are saying "imua" to the sport of the 6 man canoe.
My point, the tradition is in the V-6 canoe and not necessarily the rules of men. Rules that govern a canoe's form absolutely retard the sport when it hinders the function of the main aspect of the sport. Marara

#1 Thu, 05/20/2010 - 6:20am

I think we honor the traditional aspect of Hawaiian canoe racing during regatta season when we race the beautiful Koa canoes. The materials are (mostly) Hawaiian and everyone has a great time.
This new venue allows the sport to grow. When Manny offered this race a few short months ago, people scrambled to get new designs to race. Kamanu has built two brand new canoes. Old canoes are being refurbished that were never allowed to race before. It allows the canoe builders old and new a way to channel their creativity.
If there is this much excitement now, imagine what we will be seeing in a year's time. This race is going to be huge.
Hat's off to Manny for having the vision to do something new.
Good luck to everyone racing this weekend in this inaugural race. You are making history.

#3 Thu, 05/20/2010 - 9:12am

All of those who are eager to jump on the "no rules" bandwagon should bear in mind that the canoe builders have no idea how to build a faster canoe. Certainly they can build a lighter weight canoe that would require less effort to move forward but to assume that they have a portfolio of super canoes in their design folder is a flawed logic. The lack of rules in OC-1 has produced no serious innovations. All of the currently popular OC-1 canoes are very similar in proportions. Length, width, weight are all similar. The marketing strategy for canoe builders is to get a really fast individual or team to paddle their product and to claim superiority based on the performance of that individual or crew in races. I agree that having design rules does limit creativity but the lack of rules opens the door to people (clubs) wasting a lot of money on the newest design which may or may not be an improvement on what they currently are racing. Builders may be quick to copy Tahitian designs but the canoes in Tahiti are all very similar with slight variations. The top crews still finish in the front no matter what canoe they are using. If clubs are willing to throw money around on unproven designs then no rules is a good idea. I don't think canoe clubs have that kind of money and I don't think that builders are willing to invest a lot of money in new canoe designs that will not sell. If some designer/builder happens, by luck, to create a really superior canoe, then everyone will be obligated to buy that canoe and we will be right back where we are now with a one-design class. Is it worth it? If you have the money to throw around, maybe it is.

#5 Thu, 05/20/2010 - 7:50pm

By that logic we wouldn't have cell phones, high definition tv, Iphones, DVDs, color tv, solar panels, wind farms etc.... All these were extremely over priced in the beginning, then rich people bought them, then more people bought them then manufacturers massed produced them then prices came down then more people could afford them then you know the rest of the story.

Maybe the people that market better also make better canoes. But if marketing was so important and really had the affect you say it does then when karel was winnin all the kolos everyone would have bought zephyrs, guess what they didn't. If bet if oc offered to give top girls who paid for their pueos free boats they wouldn't race them. If marketing was so influential why aren't we all using apple tv, bing search engine ( when was the last time you saw a google advertisement) bet you've seen a bing advertisement though. I think tha is insulting that you think of us paddlers are smart enough to choose the right boat for us because of marketing. You think we are zombies. I'll tell you why everyone is on pueos......for the most part people go faster on them, then guess what..... They tell their friends and let their friends use the boat. Then that person sees what a great product it is then they buy it. Guess what again.... Word of mouth advertising is the best advertising an 99% of the pueo owners I know love their boat and have moved up substantially in race position.

The pueo might look like any other boat, but it performs like no other.

I don't own a pueo and do t plan on buying one. But, it's a fantastic boat.

#7 Thu, 05/20/2010 - 8:22pm

Tommy, it would be nice to have lighter canoes - think of the kids, women, seniors and everybody else who has to carry the weight - it can't be good for your lower back.

@ healthyearth - you probably don't know how many OC canoes have been sold world wide - I can assure you that it is a very impressive number, OC 1 and OC 6. There are a lot of reasons for that, ranging from workmanship, over service to constant innovation, and, one of the main factors as Tommy already stated, Junior's being the undisputed best open ocean paddler and Lanikai winning the channel races on Outrigger Canoes OC 6.
So: - "guess what" - they did buy, many of them.

The Pueo fills a need between the faster flat water Hurricane and the faster open ocean Kai Waa, Zephyr/OC and others.
It is a very nice all around boat and I like to paddle it because it is very comfortable to paddle, very well balanced in the waves.

In terms of pure speed - I am not sure that claims of superiority can be made. It depends too much on the conditions, each canoe has slightly different waters where it shines.

#9 Thu, 05/20/2010 - 11:34pm

Completely agree with all these comments, and while the Pueo is a great boat, probably the all around most high performing boat, what is SO revolutionary about it? People have asked this before... I think general comments like this is why people feel like this is a kamanu kiss-ass forum. I am a HUGE Pueo fan, I have owned two, It is well made, innovative ama, great people running the business... but it is not some state-of-the-art Bugatti of the outrigger world. We are all paddling accords, camrys, civics, and jettas.

TC has valid points, unlimited is the way of the future, but what about clubs that aren't as rich... You really are setting up a race for Lanikai, Outrigger and maybe Hui Nalu to win, maybe a sponsored crew (Primo, Pa'a, Kamanu). Will the kids on Kaua'i at my club, or the kids on any island at any small club feel like getting into the sport as hard core as the Dolans, Simeon, Puni? If you don't have money, you can't win... that's not a good way to start, that's half of why these rules are around... so that said, it is GREAT to have some unlimited races, but the answer isn't to suddenly make everything unlimited.

#13 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 8:51am

Let me throw my hat into the ring here. My three cents: First, I respect everyone's opinion in this thread, particularly TC's, immensely, and all have valid points. Two, Koa canoes are vital to our sport; that said, if clubs can afford an expensive Koa (in some cases $100,000 canoe) I think canoe clubs should, with extra fundraising, be able to afford an open class canoe. At least that is my hope. Third, I think the pueo is the best boat I have paddled, and there are certain aspects of the boat that make it unique. Potentially, said aspects may be able to translate to a six man. If so, the sky is the limit. Just my thoughts.

ps what about making it purely unlimited: three mans, four mans, five mans? for some arbitrary reason we think that a canoe, more specifically, a racing canoe has to be a six man. anyhow, good luck to all.

#15 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 9:51am

Goal of post: probe for specificity and excavate for clarity:

As a Pueo owner (two) and Kamanu fan (of business plan) I am on board...but I still have heard no specifics on these amazing features of the Pueo that make it the best boat ever made, so good we are now going to make 6 man molds from it (exaggeration).

Where are the specifics on why the Pueo is all that and a bag of chips?

#17 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 9:57am

What makes an Accord a $30k car and a Acura a $60k? Where is the great difference in innovation. Define what you are looking for in great innovation? Are you looking for a tellaporter that is on Startrek, or putting a hydroski on the bottom? They've made a step that is universal among people that have their boats- 99% rave about the Pueo.

The difference between the first place Kentucky Derby Winner and the second place winner is maybe 2 seconds in a 125 second race. So around 1.25%. But the money super saver can make as as stud is probably 25%-50% than the horse that got second. Also, the money that the winner (Super Saver) recieved was 3x (I don't have exact figures) that of the second place horse. My point is that there is grandness in the minor improvements and details.

At a high level fractions make the difference in being idolized or being forgotten.

#19 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 10:42am

Good point on the Koa's. Insured at $100k, yet priceless.

Having the argument between innovation and tradition is healthy, it comes down to balance, rooted in the past yet embracing the future.

Regarding Kamanu guys, something should be said for the investment (and risk) they are taking to build the sport by taking on the added work load of building 2 v6 from scratch. From here it seems that with the release of the Aukahi v1, the open class v6 and the HVA, Kamanu is carving out a new niche of canoe paddling in Hawaii, that might have the best chance of challenging Tahiti, even if its in future generations. Big picture.

I wouldn't call it a good business plan, but rather a good business philosophy.

#21 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 10:48am

Joe...
Agree 100%.
It is a philosophy, that's why they rock! But if it's also not part of their business plan they are not as smart as I think they are. People have to eat and feed their kids.
But still no specifics on these massive innovations on hull design... and like in so many posts that part will die out and then the platitudes on Pueo will come out in the next post and I'll be stuck defending to my paddling freinds why it's my favorite wa'a.

#23 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 10:52am

How do seams make the Pueo better? How do seam technology of the Pueo transfer to 6 man?

#25 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 11:07am

hahaha true!

Nothing is innovative about Tiger or Michael... they are players
(in this case paddlers)
But if we claimed that their shoes / club made them win, or was a major factor in them winning that would be very different.

I am just longing for specifics about why the Pueo is a good boat over generalities... I think the more generalities about how amazing the Pueo is, the more the non-pueo riders just write off everything we say. I know many people I paddle with are quite turned off by the hype... I would love to be able to tell them why it is true.

Numerouno... that's closer to what I was looking for... but still not really any difference or anything super innovative like many posts claim. I agree 100% with your take on it. However many of my friends claim OC wa'a surf better than Pueo, and many of the claims you make, that I myself make are just claims based on preference.

#27 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 11:33am

@hanaleibay1941: specific differences - so I think:

the hull

• the hull is rather round - waves pass under the hull without causing roll ( ball versus flat board; see K1/surfski ); other boats are more 'boxy' - see Hurricane.
  This also allows to paddle down the back of a wave really well - due to better balance ?
  Flies the ama really well, as in OC boats - due to good balance.
• consistently low weight = layup schedule. Other boats may emphasize other features, such as ruggedness, using Kevlar in the layups, glass to reduce cost etc..
• stiffness due to diviny-cell core. Allows to use a thinner lay up without sacrificing stiffness.
• volume/buoyancy distribution seems to tolerate higher weights pretty well. Boat does not pearl.
• relatively sharp entry; that is good or bad depending on where you paddle and what you want. I guess it causes less sea-sawing, on the other hand it will not push the bow up when trying to connect bumps as much as a boat with a fuller entry at the bow, such as OC models.
• not able to sit in sweet spot
• foot pedals not adjustable

the ama

• straightness prevents roll to the left
• shape has less induced resistance - 'induced' = when the ama is pushed down into the water
• has more resistance than Hurricane ama in flat water
• more resistance than an ama with bow up shape due to more wetted surface

the rudder

• simply good; matches the boat very well.

For me the boat performs well because I can control the roll without much weight shift = if I want to paddle ama up or ama light it is easy.
Ama up is when this boat gets quite a bit faster.
Downwind I would like the boat to 'carry' a little longer down the wave face - this may be related to where I sit on the boat, but I think it is also a general design feature. ( my home made surfski is the only boat that can be moved forward by small waves without need for paddle strokes, after moving the bucket forward)

Other canoes have many of these features as well - this is just what comes to my mind while I am paddling the boat.

• we should also mention cost as it relates to materials used

#29 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 2:36pm

Z-rider, you are correct- when the Osprey is away the Pueo will play.

#31 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 2:10pm

@zephyrrider - the content that is not related to the headline is marked with @name_here to make it a personal response. That way you can easily identify what you are supposed to read and what you can skip. There is barely any comment in this thread, including yours, that matches the headline, including the first one :). Nevertheless some interesting ones. There is hardly ever a thread that does not go 'off topic' - you may need to start a new thread for each thought.

#33 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 3:42pm

To keep it interesting and continuing, throw the thread wide open, it's good to hear input from people who don't venture here that frequently.

#35 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 2:55pm

Pat Dolan is probably not reading this post anymore since it got so off-topic. He had a very valid point about incorporating some simple and inexpensive changes to the six man canoe that would make it more fun to paddle. Current rules only allow manual bailing with a bucket and require that the canoe have a cover in open ocean racing. Anyone who has purchased a cover knows that they are not cheap. If the canoes were built with or retrofitted with a self draining feature then the endless bailing would be eliminated unless the canoe flipped over. You could also consider a battery powered bilge pump. Cost of bilge pump $100. Cost of gel battery pack $200. Cost of racing cover $3000. Do the math.
Regarding the 99% superiority of one brand of anything (pick something). There is a simple law of supply and demand that is taught in every economics class. When demand goes up, the price goes up, not down. If 99% of the club teams are paddling one brand of six man canoe because it is so hot, what will the selling price be?

#37 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 3:20pm

I can see this as being a good starting point for more open class design OC-6 canoes being built for non-Regatta season races. Yes, they won't be considered legal during regular regatta sanctioned races, but for races that are put on for fundraising (Coast Guard Memorial, Kala Kukea Challenge, and others) they may be worth spending the money on to race in. Also, some clubs may already have an older design OC-6 canoe that is not legal under the HCRA rules and just sitting in the back of a halau or even backyard that can now be used again so no extra money need to be spent on a new design/model.

Who knows maybe Manny/PA'A might decide to have some six-man races during the normal one-man season (alternate weekends) where these open design canoes can be used to be raced in. If that happens, I can see people finding/looking for some old canoe builders that no longer build canoes to make a "one-off" six-man for them. If that "one-off" somehow becomes a good design, then they may be sought out again to make another and they may end up back in the business of making canoes or some extra money on the side doing it.

#39 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 4:14pm

Healthy. You cannot compare consumer electronics or automobiles to outrigger canoes. A multi-billion dollar industry is not the same as a niche manufacturer of canoes. The price of the items you quoted goes down because there are numerous producers who are in competition with each other. Therefore the supply goes up, the demand remains the same and the price goes down. Right now there are two significant producers of six man canoes, OC and Bradley. If a third producer comes into the market with an obviously superior product the market will shift to this producer in your 99% satisfaction analogy which will create increased demand for ONE product and a corresponding increase in price

#41 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 4:53pm

90 kg? Wow…is there a website for those?

How about a video

#43 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 6:21pm

Kamanu vs Outrigger Connection ....I like it.

#45 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 7:30pm

every person i talk to about ANY light boat is stoked, not one brand or another. so i think weight is a huge part but certainly not the only thing. designers haven't even thought about how to design a lighter and faster canoe because they've never been given a reason to.

all the respect in the world to Tommy for being a great paddler. but i have to disagree on your implication that canoe builders have no idea how to build a faster boat. that would be like saying that a outrigger connection/kamanu/bradley/tahitian boat built today is the same speed as something like a malia mold canoe from the 80's. i happen to be one of the many lucky people that has paddled in malias, hawaiian class racers, bradleys, force fives, lightnings, hawaiian catamarans, and yes even one of the new OC-6 in Kailua. this certainly doesn't make me an expert in design. but i do believe i can say that design in both single person and six person canoes have evolved greatly. not only in construction and materials but also in hull efficiency. to say builders have no idea what they are doing is quite a disservice to all the men and women that have strived over the years (and succeeded!) in dreaming up faster designs for all of us to enjoy. do paddlers honestly think that a HCRA spec canoe is the fastest possible design on the water? really?

i'll be in an unlimited canoe this sunday. no i'm not a designer or builder. just someone who helped put the boat together that will help carry me across the channel. will i win? of course not. will i have FUN? you bet! i'll probably even be beaten by crews in 400 pound spec boats. but for me that's not the point. i strive to have the most fun that me and my crew possibly can.

all the respect to PA'A and Manny for offering us this chance to race whatever canoes people can dream up. also huge respect to the canoe builders and designers that scraped and clawed in a short three months to put together new canoes from SCRATCH. these canoes will be tested in some of the most grueling conditions imaginable. regardless of what happens with these designs and theories, it is an honor to be around and see an aspect of the paddling culture in hawai'i evolve before our eyes. how lucky are we to be present to witness something as fun as this? i've been a mediocre paddler for 20+ years of my life and it amazes me to see a race like this taking place.

see you all out on the water on sunday. it's going to be fun!

#47 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 10:48pm

scoops, i think you might be missing the point as far as this race goes. i don't think it's manny's intention to do away with the current hcra rules and regulations concerning boat specs. he even stated that was not his intention. he just wants to an "iron" molo and have the builders and paddlers bust out whatever thy want as far as boats go. it's not like the kamanu 6man is gonna be used by whatever club during regatta season or during the regular molo. as far as oc-1 race attendance dropping it might have something to do with the economy, plunking down money every week to paddle might be low on the priority list in these tough times. aloha.

#49 Fri, 05/21/2010 - 10:38pm

I don't know much, but I do know that I just became a masters paddler (yikes), drank a lot of Newcastle tonight and am paddling on Sunday in a brand new canoe. Seat 5 in Kapa'a- Kamanu crew #2. My sophmoric prediction is that the OCP Mafia will shock the world. Not because we are going to crush team Kamanu , but because we will be doing what we love to do- paddling hard, having fun, and pushing the envelope... See you all on Sunday!
Plus I still have lots of beer left over for the Mafia and friends!

Let it be known that I am a bit scared to paddle a canoe made essentially of foam and gorilla glue. But Keizo said it would hold...and I believe him.

#51 Sat, 05/22/2010 - 12:49am

I agree with Pat that this race will change the sport. Outrigger canoe paddling has been ripe for a revolution and I think Manny and the Kamanu guys have lit the fire. Tradition is an important part of this sport but it has also mired it in the past. An iron race plus it is unlimited. This is just fucking fantastic. I am 2500 miles away and rarely paddle anymore but I am psyched for tomorrow.
Does anyone remember about 10 years ago a group of girls ironed the Women's Molokai? They got SO much resistance from the race officials. It was ridiculous. They were local paddlers but had to register as False Creek to get around all the roadblocks they encountered. In spite of it all they did the race and finished.
I hope that this race tomorrow is a new beginning for outrigger canoe racing and canoe design. Imua!

#53 Sat, 05/22/2010 - 6:34pm

Rigidity should be no surprise as it's mostly carbon. If you grab the manu and shake a standard Mirage it twists and wobbles, do that to the Lovell and it don't move. Is it still at Hawaiian Club Maui?

R

#55 Sat, 05/22/2010 - 8:22pm

money changes the sport and that is not a step in the right direction.

Provide an alternative then. Research and development takes money and there needs to be a forum where new designs can be tested (and no, just paddling doesn't count, people like to see comparisons, thus the popularity or races), which also takes money. As sad as it is, money is going to be needed to move forward.

Good luck to all the crews today. Is anyone going to be providing updates from the channel?

#57 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 5:19am

damn, it took waterfun 50+ post to get it right. its about CHOICE. HCRA clubs don't have to buy an unlimited boat. there is a traditional class in the race as well. now you have two leagues to play in. some may not be happy with it but what this race is also doing is giving credit to the underground builders. those who are shunned by HCRA. these guys are out there building "outrigger canoes" not necessarily "traditional canoes" but they are still building a canoe. hopefully the list of builders will expand if unlimited racing continues. and you know there is a bunch of them out there. I give it a couple of years if that, and OC and uncle Sonny will be out there building at least one unlimited them selves. a couple of years after that Eck. will have an unlimited. HCRA isn't going anywhere. if you have money to buy one buy one. if you not want to buy it dont. your CHOICE. its already fun.

#59 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 9:11am

@anowara, waterfun, Pat - good points; it should say: "money 'may be' a step in the wrong direction."
@nalunutz - agree; it would be a sit on top Hawaiian outrigger 6 man canoe.

What is the ' new direction' ?

The open class opens a new branch: the curiosity of it will attract media attention, more sponsorship and also more paddlers. It will also be the playground for new design. First with major, later with subtle changes. The weight will drop, the hull will be streamlined a bit, the ama will undergo changes, the seat positions will change, bailers, new deck shapes, integrated drinking system. After a while, a new 'normal' will be reached. A few more builders will enter the market. The successful companies will be able to increase their reach.
All good, definitely an attractive idea.

Is it sustainable to produce new designs often ? Will clubs be able to afford the upgrades ? Who is going to pay for it ? - yes, we are :)
Would this trickle down into regatta season ?

Regattas are done in Koa canoes. They weigh about 400 lbs. That's why fiberglass boats weigh 400 lbs as well, I assume. Nobody wants to change the Koa requirement for traditional reasons. - No change for short distance.

For long distance the weight requirement could be dropped. It may not be desirable, though. You would end up with a heavier 400 lbs and a lighter 250 lbs class. Desirable ? Example: there may be 4 crews with a light boat and 4 crews with a heavier boat in the masters class - enough for real competition ? In the end every club would need at least one light boat for every division. Who will pay for this change ? - Maybe a distant change for long distance season.

Choice: I do not see the point - you can always chose to build a canoe on your own and go paddle it, ama on the left, ama on the right, two amas, no ama etc.. Nobody, - except yourself by not doing it -, has been restricting that.

#61 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 1:27pm

"Open mold divisions – 1) 300lb.+ 2) Under 300lb. No age divisions for these canoes.
•Length – must be no shorter than 39 feet, and no longer than 45 feet
•No foot braces or divots inside the hull for leveraging your body or feet
•Must have 2 iakos, and 1 ama
•Waterline – unrestricted
•Shape – unrestricted
•No mechanical bailers
•No sails or other artificial means of propulsion are permitted on the canoe.
•No fins or keels will be allowed on canoe or ama in either division.
•Canvas or other covering on the canoe is MANDATORY."

These limitations mean that the class is no different to Va'a, except that there will be a possibility of entering V1, V3, V4, V5, V6......etc. etc. ... and of course weight is unlimited except for the 300lb + division.

OC1 has a heel brace facility and a rudder, so will not be elligible.

Niether is it a truly "open" class if kneeler type canoes are not acceptable.

#63 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 1:50pm

I guess I was wrong. I didn't think that it could be done, but in just three months, a local builder came up with a new design six man canoe that just blew the doors off of everything else in the water. After more than thirty years of trying to build a faster six man canoe, it took just three months to arrive at the design of the future. Amazing, just amazing.

#65 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 7:43pm

ditto on what jc9_0 said. It was really the most fun I've had crossing the channel in an OC6.
It's worth repeating that Keizo is the MAN! Kapa'a did things that I had not seen or felt an OC6 do. I am humbled, honored and amazed.
A huge Mahalo to Manny and Pa'a for organizing the race and making it a great event.

#67 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 9:53pm

It is an interesting race result:

Race pace of the first finisher lightweight was about 8 miles/hour downwind.
Race pace for change races 400 lbs is about 9 miles/hour downwind.
Race pace OC 1 relay is about 9 miles/hour downwind.
Race pace surfski is almost 10 miles/hour downwind.

Lightweight OC 6 are slower than OC 1 over this distance downwind.

How did Paul Gay's 'lightweight' do ?

#69 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 10:58pm