The Pa’a ‘Eono Hoe is three days away. This race will change our sport. By opening the field to any six-man canoe specifications our sport is taking a step in the right direction. Don’t get me wrong- I do believe in preserving the culture and tradition of Hawaiian outrigger canoe paddling. We will always remember and honor where/how Hawaiian canoe paddling came to be. But we have already stepped away from tradition by changing so many things, such as racing in fiberglass canoes. If there are six people in the canoe with an ama rigged out to the left, is the tradition not alive anymore? Why not open the specifications completely?
http://www.velzyhawaii.com/Velzy_Hawaii/Blog/Entries/2010/5/20_New_Race%...
Submitted by PatDolan on Thu, 05/20/2010 - 3:49am
There are probably 100 topics that I want to comment about on this thread, but I have to keep it simple because I'm falling asleep.
1) Regarding the race: The race today was probably one of the greatest experiences of my life and I hope that everyone who participated felt similarly. This morning at Papohaku at like 7:30 a quick shower passed overhead and we got a killer rainbow framing all of the canoes against the ocean. Almost nothing I've experienced compares with the feeling I got looking at all of the canoes on the beach with a giant rainbow over them. For probably the first time in my life it felt like I personally witnessed an historical event. I truly feel blessed to have been able to paddle in this first inaugural 'Eono Hoe and I really want to send out a huge thank you to Manny and the volunteers at Pa'a for making this event possible.
2) Regarding the canoes: As soon as we heard that Manny was putting on an iron open class channel, we started making plans to build a canoe for it. But we didn't seriously start until maybe two months ago. Keizo and Johnny could both explain the design process a lot better; but the Kawainui and the Kapa'a were designed with a combination of Keizo's engineering education (computer aided design/analysis) and Johnny's knowledge/experience of what makes an OC-6 surf well and his design sense. It's been an incredibly interesting and exciting process for everyone at Kamanu Composites and everyone in the two crews. The canoes were worked on nearly around the clock (with Keizo there around the clock) straight up until about 7:00 this morning. Both were virtually untested (though we did get the Kawainui in the surf three times prior to the race) until today. We put everything we had into those two canoes, but, I believe that their success today was partly due to luck. They were so untested that any number of unforeseeable situations could have set them back. A lot of things came together (or could have gone wrong) and both of the canoes did really well despite the mad rush. If the channel was like the relay was, Livestrong's shockingly beautiful/ revolutionary canoe would have walked away with it. I can almost guarantee that Livestrong is going to win Kona and make a new record with their incredible canoe.
Open class canoes are in their infancy right now. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to all of the canoes and designs that came before us, and hopefully this race and others like it will allow the canoes to continue to evolve.
I am incredibly proud/ honored/ humbled to have been a part of everything that happened today, and I sincerely hope that this sort of thing continues happening. It really makes me excited to see what will happen over the next couple of years.
Thank you to everyone for all the support. I am deliriously tired right now, so sorry if any of this is incoherent.
P.S. Eckhart, to answer your question-- I don't think that Paul Gay's canoe ended up that light, but it looked really really fast. I heard that they had issues keeping the canoe dry because the gunnels are low and the canvas isn't a perfect fit. Paul said he is planning on building a deck for it.
#71 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 7:35am
WOW!
If anyone ever wondered if the whole event was worthwhile there is your answer.
Thanks for sharing it with us Luke.
#72 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 12:17am
Luke
Thanks so much for the response.
Puts it all in perspective.
Congrats to all who raced.
#73 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 5:26am
Aren
t these so called new rules actually a return to the days when the Tahitians showed up to Molokai Hoe and blew everyone away with thier style of 6man? Werent the rules for Hawaiian racing changed AFTER the Tahitian rout to prevent it from happening again? I think this is the case. Tahitian style boats were allowed to enter the race untill they won ,,,, THEN ,, the rules were changed. I`ve always thought that 400 lbs . for a 6 man canoe was rediculous ...#74 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 6:07am
@jc0_9 - just assumptions; once paddlers get used to the race format the OC 6 may beat the OC 1 record. It would be interesting to know what makes the difference.
Does an OC 6 have more wetted surface than 6 fold of an OC 1 ? Would they need to be lighter, below 200 lbs in stead of below 300 lbs ?
@Luke - congratulations and respect to all of you, we share your joy.
How was the "perceived effort" during the race ? Upper limits of normal ? Outright scary ? I hope everybody is doing well today.
Paul was making adjustments up to the last minute as well. He thought the weight was around 320 lbs. The canvas was sown in another 'heroic' effort in his house.
#75 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 6:58am
Good point eckhart. I think it really is possible to get faster with a 6-man. From my own perspective, I was learning how to paddle that boat the entire race. I'd never even sat in the Kapa'a till yesterday morning. Our entire crew had never paddled her together till yesterday morning. Faster than a one man? Not sure though.
I feel like I worked very hard yesterday. Experienced more fatigue than anything. Not the usual knock down drag out kicked in the gut soreness of paddling a 400 pound boat.
Also want to give some credit to Johnny for the canoe design as well. I just felt compelled to mention Keizo last night as he's often the quiet guy that is rarely mentioned.
Luke hit the nail on the head. The crew of the Kapa'a talked about the feeling of an impending shift and evolution in paddling for the last few weeks. The whole scene at Papohaku was surreal. The number of people at china walls and the finish line was killer. I think paddlers knew something special was going on. Also boatloads of respect to everyone that did the channel in a spec canoe. That must have been one hell of a race for you. I echo Luke's thoughts. This was all very humbling and amazing. We were fortunate to be part of the event yesterday.
#76 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 7:42am
Mean looking va'a, that race winning Kamanu number.
Never has been any doubt about the advantage of high power to weight ratio and low wetted surface........where to next? more hull volume, less weight and more paddling power.
#77 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 8:47am
@Luke. I wish I was there....envy...pure envy!
#78 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 9:04am
i think the best part of yesterday was seeing Sr., Uncle Sonny & Uncle Bobby there to show support. for all the talk good or bad about HCRA and their regulations yesterday was a historic day for "Hawaiian Outrigger Canoe" paddling and where it is headed. 3 months to build a canoe and have it perform to yesterday's standard is incredible. Keizo you're my new hero. it shows what positive things can be done with computers and technology. Braddah could be building rockets for some private company and getting paid. But know you helped design the new rocket ship for ocean voyage. congrats. Lucky you live Hawaii.
#79 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 10:27am
Wow, Congratulations to all the participants!
This race is the best thing to happen to the sport since the reinvention of the one man canoe for open ocean fun.
In a short time, this will be one of the few races that matter. The solo and the eono.
A couple of thoughts:
Despite conditions, I was not surprised by the relatively slow times of the crossing. I think a lot has to do with the length of the canoe and how it fits in the trough. Shorter canoe will hold the bump longer and easier. It would be awesome to get a three or fourman division as well. I guarantee an open class custom three of fourman would destroy the field on a windy day in the channel (with solid paddlers of course).
Way to go Manny and the guys at Kamanu. Dream big, live big. sky is the limit.
#80 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 10:54am
After reading TC's second post, I got to thinking: How much of these new canoes speed is due to weight reduction, and how much due to improved hull shape?
Shawn Burke, in the article "The Science of Paddling, Part 1", established that as a rule of thumb (for constant power) that speed is proportional to the total weight of the boat and paddlers to the -(2/9)th power.
Plugging in some estimates can give some interesting results. Assuming the average weight of the paddlers is 170 lbs:
The speed increase goes up for a lighter crew and down for a heavier crew.
So I guess any increases in speed above those estimated above are from improvements to the hull shape! Of course these calculations are only valid for the same team in the same conditions with and without the extra weight so who knows how much was the boat and how much was the crew. As always.
Calculation corrections are welcome!
#81 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 4:09pm
Iron = good ! It was also a great time to indroduce unlimited design craft and another in between length course , to many associations can make things look like boxing though!
#82 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 4:15pm
Dang ,,, I was wrong in my earlier post . The race I was refering to where the Tahitians clobbererd the field was 1976. The boats the Tahitians raced that year were mostly borrowed boats , only one of the top 4 Tahitian crews had a boat that was not Hawaiian.
The new Kamanu 6 man canoe looks so much like a typical Tahitian canoe that I thought that`s what was raced way back in 76. My bad...
If any of you people don`t have a copy of " Molokai - Oahu Trough the Years yet ,,, go get one ,,, great reference to have around ,,, helps me a great deal with lore of the Hawaiian seas .
#83 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 3:32am
Not being a boat builder or designer just a paddler who often because of seat position gets the joy of bailing I have often wondered as mentioned by TC why drains have not been thought of for the big boats used for racing. Here is a simple modification that seems to make sense.
http://www.omcra.ca/bailers.html
Also is heavier a tradition? Other than weight lifting, most sports have used technology to eliminate weight not keep it about for traditions sake.
#84 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 7:56am
Just paddle. The self bailers you mentioned are in use with the hawaiin sailing canoe races.
#85 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 8:08am
The self bailers only work when you can sustain a high speed. The sailing canoes can do that and so can the sailboat they are normally fitted on, but a 6 man can't sustain speed long enough for the water to draft and suck out.
It would have to be closed before the canoe decelerates to keep a backflow of water.
#86 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 9:54am
Suppose that paddle steering instead of rudder mechanism is kept for the sake of tradition, and that a bailer mechanism is hardly different to a rudder..........so, may as well break away from tradition to allow a wider shorter hull with lower wetted area to slot between bumps and outrun a long canoe with draggy ama. This means that a 6man is going to be too wide for single blade paddling, and why stick with a single blade anyway since it is only used for the sake of tradition.
#87 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 10:25am
Toa Moana said, "The self bailers only work when you can sustain a high speed. The sailing canoes can do that and so can the sailboat they are normally fitted on, but a 6 man can’t sustain speed long enough for the water to draft and suck out."
Placement of and managing deployment of the bailer is also important- in the sailing canoe someone has to actually flip a lever to get the venturi section below the hull once the speed is sufficient for it to suck water our of the hull. If it's not placed in the lowest spot while at hull speed, it's worthless.
Another factor is how much water is coming in- the self bailers are good- but if you have a huge hole in your canvas, it won't make a lot of difference even if you are going 12 to 15 knots in a sailing canoe.
Really- better zippers on the canvas and skirts would be a faster, more economical solution. Current canvas zippers leak badly! For an iron race the zippers don't need to be as long, maybe even placed on the side of the canvas instead of the middle where water will pool- especially in 1, 2, 5 and 6.
Long term- it won't be long before a one-way venturi could be developed that works at a lower speed. They work on OC-1's that aren't going more than 8 or 9 knots. If they completely sealed at lower speeds, it might not get all the water out, but would reduce the frequency of bailing.
#88 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 12:44pm
I've often wondered why builders don't put a venturi type system in the front of the boat where the strokers feet go. When you catch a wave the boat nose is down and you seem to have enough speed to suck lots of water out.
Seems like this would help the problem, but not fix it completely. Every little bit helps though.
#89 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 2:16pm
Putting a "venturi" system in a boat has got to be a weird thing to do........since a venturi is a tapered narrowing inside a tube. Fluid flowing under pressure THROUGH the tube is what creates the venturi effect, and for boats the fluid flow is outside the hull.
Where can the tube be put outside the hull for water to flow through???
#90 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 2:39pm
Actually goodwaka, what you describe is just one manifestation of the Venturi effect. The Venturi effect, a pressure drop due to the increase in velocity through a constriction, can occur in other locations than a constriction in a pipe, although this is often the most common because a differential pressure (or head for civil engineers) measurement on either side can be used to measure the flow rate.
The way way the drains everyone is mentioning work is by dropping the pressure outside of the hull below the hydrostatic pressure inside the hull due to a higher velocity (this is an energy balance best expressed via the Bernoulli equation). This is enough to start a siphon (which is why the drain only works when the canoe/boat is moving) which is enhanced by a constriction. So, yes, it is probably quite accurate to describe these drains as a Venturi system.
#91 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 5:49pm
jusrpaddle, those are called "andersen bailers", they've been used for a looooong time with sailing boats.
There are many place where you can buy them,like this one http://www.mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_...
Retrofiting to your hull is easily done, beware, your canoe won't be legal anymore.
#92 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 8:45pm
just out of curiosity... thought for sure i'd see one of bill's canoes on Moloka'i for the 'Eono. what gives?
#93 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 9:33pm
Thanks anowara, your description is spot on.
Siphon created by the pressure differentiation due to Bernouli principle where increased fluid velocity under the hull drains the footwell, sounds too complicated compared to "venturi"..........still, a venturi is a tubular thing.
What do you say about Koanda effect in this situation?
#94 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 10:23pm
I know at least two different surfski with andersen bailers.
- Nordic Fusion,
- Epic V12, here modified with a tennis ball, can be opened/closed by foot.
Red7 builds a surfski with improved scuppers.
info here : http://www.surfski.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=103...
Steve Ulrich, has retrofited some to his ski, and says : "While everyone is different, I'm a fairly slow paddler cruising at 7mph (11kph) and my Mako6 always has a bit of water in the footwell. After adding these pieces the footwell is dry and the scuppers making a loud sucking sound close to 5mph."
#95 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 12:28am
I'll give you that with no capitalization.
I've not actually heard about it before. From a quick read, it seems to be more important for higher velocity flows since most examples given for it's application are for aircraft. It probably is operating for the drains and keeps the flow out of the drain attached to the hull, but the real importance is probably pretty minimal.
#96 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 2:52am
I'm not an outrigger paddler, but fall into the "paddling media" category. The new unlimited division and going "iron" caught my attention, which is why I published the pre-race news release. It's been exciting to follow these developments. I also admit it's hard not to fall into hyperbole in this discussion.
As I read what Manny has written and said, I don’t get a sense that he or others would try to preempt other kinds of racing. From my unfamiliar viewpoint, it seems to me that outrigger racing opportunities have just been expanded. My inexperience perspective leads me to believe that the PA’A ‘Eono was an attempt to strike a balance between tradition and innovation.
Many on the Mainland are trying to figure out how to adopt OC6 racing craft to our ultra-marathon events. I have to admit that the weight of the traditional craft is a huge downside to we land-locked racers. But, our perspective is skewed because we haven’t been part of a tradition, yet all the while racing in unlimited six-man racing canoes that weigh 150 pounds and can maintain 10 MPH on flatwater with a solid crew. But, I guarantee, that if an outrigger can be built to match that, the sales market will expand. We river racers have already been converted to surfskis and OC1/2s as they regularly win our ultra-marathon events.
Ultimately, from my unlearned eye, it seems that this is a very good thing for OC6 racing. Congratulations to the crews, the designers/manufacturers and to PA’A for hosting the race itself.
Certainly some good craic surrounding the whole thing … which is a good thing!
#97 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 11:30am
I think your perception is right on the money, Osprey, and if you can get a crew together capable of maintaining 10 mph in flats may I steer them in the next Hoe?
#98 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 11:34am
@Osprey - Outrigger Connection has built several carbon layup Mirages that weigh about 190 lbs.
The surprise - those were built 10 years ago !
In Hawaii the weight is determenied by the Koa boats - 400 lbs. As those are the boats used in the regattas; it is unlikely that thev weight for OC 6 will be dropped anytime soon over here.
It would be a good idea to have light OC 6 - for non-regatta races, that can be loaded with additional weight to train for regatta races.
If you do not have the Koa requirement in regattas - that is everywhere outside Hawaii - for what reason would you want to paddle a 400 lbs boat ? Just call Outrigger Connection or others and order a lighter one.
#99 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 12:00pm
On further thought about previous issue.........a surfski footwell drain system is maybe best to be called a suction scupper system.
And while thinking about these things, it shows that weight reduction allowed by a closed deck/sit-on structure can be 8Kg's for a one man. So multiply this by 6 and you get 48Kg, or 107 Lbs, which is aheap lighter than the so called lightweight Mirage.
The 190Lb "lightweight Mirage" works out well over 30 lbs per paddler, which is considered way too heavy for bump riding.
Looks to me like the new open class V1's are about the same weight as the traditionally based wooden V1's.
#100 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 12:40pm
Ecky, i would still like to know why the Lovell Taylors (Mirage Mk1 Carbon/balsa sandwich) were not raced.? There are at least 2 in existence in Hawaii that i know of . I asked earlier in the thread but no answers. Interestingly one was made and shipped to New York.
R
#101 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 1:18pm
Rambo - the Kailua 50 women used the carbon Mirage M1.
This Mirage went to Maui first and was bought back by Kailua, Oahu.
The PAA team was in a Mirage M2.
I forgot what boat Lanikai was in.
Lanikai Juice - a Novice A crew was in a 280 lbs Lightning.
The conditions were up to scary, also for the escort boats. A lot of bailing was going on. The last ~ 9 miles were difficult to paddle with more of the common Portlock chop than usual. Boat speeds dropped to 4 miles and less per hour. Top speeds in mid channel on the Mirage M2 17 miles per hour.
The logistics - drinking systems etc. were not fully thought out by some crews.
This is what I heard.
Maybe it would have been too rough for you on your 'ocean bike' ?
#102 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 2:02pm
Thanks Ecky, that's what i originally thought when Tommy suggested the 50+ masters women were paddling a LW, but no-one would confirm it. Good to know it's still being used.
Thanks again
Downwind on the jetski no problems, can ride the waves with the canoe and still film. Maybe a few knockdowns but that's ok, prepared for that. Harness attaches behind my back and allows switching side saddle either side or rear facing. No come off.
R
#103 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 2:17pm
Rambo - this Paul Gay's UMI
http://proofs.martamedia.com/buy_print.php?fav=0&type=original&col=0&id=...
http://proofs.martamedia.com/buy_print.php?fav=0&type=original&col=0&id=...
The bow worked real well even in rough conditions, the gunnels were too low, the spray skirts not tight enough.
There had not been enough time to make the deck.
This boat started its career as a three man in the 80ies, was used as a sailing canoe for races between the islands and has lately been waiting in Paul's backyard for a new adventure.
The bow is OC 1-like at the bottom and more traditional on the deck, the stern deck is cut down.
#104 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 2:23pm
Yeah i seen that one on the crane being loaded on the barge. Gunnels barely come up to their hips. I'm sure Paul will have it all sorted for next time. How did the Ladies like the Lovell Taylor?
R
#105 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 2:22pm
I wouldn't know this - I heard that the women - at least in some crews - had generally hoped for better results.
Paul builds following the principle 'to beat the money'. He says that they have always done it that way. If you can't afford it, improvise and build it yourself. The bow and stern modification were made for several hundred dollars.
#106 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 2:27pm
That bow shape is very popular in Tahiti with some builders, looks like submarine bow or Dolphin nose.
I recon some of the runs and dropins when the top crews could take the main swell would have been awesome, the steerers must have had a ball.
R
#107 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 2:44pm
I've heard this as well, I think in Steve West's book. I'm in new York and have never heard it mentioned and in ECORA we have the 400 lbs. weight requirement. Can anyone actually confirm this canoe exists?
All this talk about canoe noses, one of the biggest differences between what we would call a Hawai'ian and Tahitian va'a is the nose. I'm not talking about the lack of a manu either, but rather where the hull first makes contact with the water. I think it's on kamanu's facebook page where there is a photo of the start and this is really apparent.
#108 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 3:11pm
anowara, you paddling the NY Mayors Cup in Aug, i'll be there filming?
#109 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 3:16pm
Hmmm, it's tempting, but I don't think I can be that mean to the race organizers and make them wait around for a few hours after everyone else for me to finish!
I want to come down and check out the race though. I think they switched the start to the Hudson and 79th St. Boat Basin. That's a nice area and the restaurant there is a great spot to watch the water. Let me know if you need any help, happy to actually have something to do other than watch.
Also, if anyone from Team Kamanu wanted to do the race, I have an Aukahi you're welcome to borrow…
#110 Thu, 05/27/2010 - 7:34am
Just a slight fact check Eckhart ...
Lanikai Juice - a Novice A crew was in a 280 lbs Lightning
We paddled a Pogue Sports Canadian built Bradley Lightning with the detachable stern that weighed in at 320-325 lbs before iakos, ama, skirts, food and water. We carried almost everything we ate and drank for the crossing to avoid re-supply exchanges given the conditions. I noticed while carrying other teams canoes to the beach they did the same, I now have a sprained lower back to prove it. Bring on the lighter classification!
#111 Thu, 05/27/2010 - 8:16am
New York Mayors Cup ........ there is an outrigger division and the NY ORCC have entered OC6 AFAIK. Might have an extra camera for you,
R
#112 Thu, 05/27/2010 - 11:20am
This thread has gone all over the place. I must admit it is very interesting and a little A.D.D. I try to not talk about things I am not fully educated in, but here is a few comments that are bothering me.
I am surprised to hear many comments that canoes builders have no idea how to build light canoes, or have not thought about how to build light canoes and we are over charging.
That is totally incorrect. I personally, with a team have spend thousands of dollars, tested over 18 different material lay-ups with some composites not even fully market ready. I have discussed at lengths, weight, design, lay-up with many builders including Kaimanu. We have made some changes that worked great, and other that didn't and we correcting them. This all cost time and money. Kaimanu is doing a great thing and I fully support PA'A and Manny. We have an open class hull ready to start shaping this fall from the design of Sonny Bradley. The class allows us to apply the designs and concepts we have been working on for years, and now ready to apply.
In this forum I really do not care what canoe you paddle or what six man your club supports. I do not get wrapped up in the Ford versus Chevy debate that has been going on for 100 years and realize that this debate is what drive our business. All I know is that Kaimanu with a good team, and great shaper in John Puakea have made a great canoe. is it the best, no, but I do not think there is a best. We should thank them and others like myself for trying and taking the risk for all us to enjoy the water in our products. When you see us show up with a old truck and touched up canoe, and you are paddling your new shinny canoe on your new truck, make sure you give us a wave and thanks.
Trust me, as a builder and in this community, we do not make are great deal of money. Ask any shaper or builder and you will hear it is a labour of love. Many people that complain about prices, make more per year than we do. IT is a glamorous job and looks great, but sleepless nights, design cost, marketing cost, damage cost, and open forums are not for the weak hearted.
As for unlimited class I am ready. I have spend a great deal of time and money and am still working on improving and new options. Until they open the class to unlimited, all the work and research we have done cannot be applied. I have a 185 lbs Bradley Lightning in a foam cored lay up with materials that have just become available to the public, but it can still be better and that is what will be ready when it is time. I don't think I am the only builder waiting for market to open up.
So, everyone out there that thinks builders don't know or don't think about light canoes, Wake up. You don't hear from us because we are stuck to rules and are trying to build your next toy and keep our competitors away.
Ryan Pogue
#113 Fri, 05/28/2010 - 7:26am
Amen to that, Pogue. Super hard work w/ nasty materials and not much profit. Frankly, I wonder how you guys can afford to sell them at the prices you do. If union carpenters were making them they'd be more than twice the price.
#114 Fri, 05/28/2010 - 7:38am
Eckhart: "Portlock chop," now you know why I suggested the Windward side finish.
#115 Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:06am
@TKWraps - thanks for correcting that.
@Pogue - "I am surprised to hear many comments that canoes builders have no idea how to build light canoes, or have not thought about how to build light canoes and we are over charging."
Are such comments in this thread ? Light boats have been there for a while, at least ~ 10 years; see Karel.
One challenge was that boat builders do not know how to build 'fast' canoes. There are a few principles that apply; those have been applied in the past.
Now you would need 'knowledge' about how to improve. But it is rather trial and error. Knowledge would lead to a predictable result; that you will get, but with many limitations.
@koakanoe - would you get to the windward side under strong northerly conditions ?
#116 Fri, 05/28/2010 - 2:03pm
I think the most most exciting thing about all these new radical changes is that as crews learn how to paddle these newer and lighter canoes their speed will only increase. These boats have only had one race so when teams really learn how to apply their power more efficiently to match the canoes ability, then watch the times tumble!
Fun times ahead!!!!
Barts
#117 Fri, 05/28/2010 - 3:22pm
Eckhart: About as well as you getting to the Bathhouse in Hawaii Kai as I would Makai Range Pier in Waimanalo.
#118 Fri, 05/28/2010 - 6:36pm
@ eckhart: by busting ass hard into the wind. Are you a Lanikai boy or what?
#119 Fri, 05/28/2010 - 9:01pm
@Jim - upwind paddling all day long; the times of being a boy have quietly passed.
Today we had level 2 practice, 4 times 20 minutes.
My question: why do we have to do one time 80 minutes and race everybody that is on the ocean at level 3 plus whilst with only five men in the canoe ? Some things never change; - it was fun, but was it a good preparation for the time trial tomorrow ...
One beautiful thing about Kaai - he calls out the grace of the moment, the beauty of the ocean and the sunset and reminds the crew to be grateful - that is paddling !
Never mind the cursing of the competition in between :)
#120 Fri, 05/28/2010 - 9:36pm
I had aproximately 12 chunks of fun per mile. Still got that s#|t eating grin on...
#121 Sun, 05/30/2010 - 7:52pm
Sick video of the Kapa'a boys surfin' it up! Look like at least 12 chunks o' fun per mile. Blazing away from the escort boat. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1713260654&v=wall&story_fbid=103705729673848#!/video/video.php?v=1478409362164
#122 Mon, 05/31/2010 - 10:07am
Maybe someone w/ skillz can embed that video properly.
#123 Mon, 05/31/2010 - 10:08am
Like this Jaymbes
#124 Mon, 05/31/2010 - 11:06am
If any thing goes, are any of the crews(steerer) using GPS? or are they not allowed? I know straight course is not always the fastest but you dont want too stray to far off course.
#125 Mon, 05/31/2010 - 12:38pm
Support boats mostly have GPS and advice steerer,
#126 Mon, 05/31/2010 - 2:58pm
Hi there.
As far as drag is concerned, if we talk about open specs, could it be that OC6 and V6 evolve to a shorter water line ?
After all, speed race canoes, kayaks, and even rowing skiffs are not THAT long !
#127 Wed, 06/02/2010 - 3:17am
I had always heard that boats with a longer water line are faster in the water. I might be wrong. Some of the fastest monohull America's cup boats were very long. In the rowing world the 4 man racing shell is 44.9 ft. and the 8 man is 65.2 ft. If anything we might see outriggers get longer, narrower in the bow and of course lighter.
#128 Wed, 06/02/2010 - 8:12am
In simple terms, a longer waterline, (proportional to weight) is faster in flat, controlled conditions. For speed in the ocean, (surfing) you're going to need a length and rocker that are designed to fit into the wavelength/interval for the run you're on. I seriously doubt that anyone's going to find a faster open-ocean design that's much outside of 40 to 46 feet, LOA, which is just about what all six-mans are anyways. Narrower (in general) is good. Lighter is good.
#129 Wed, 06/02/2010 - 8:34am
Thanks Goto. I figured there was some kind of optimum length for downwind surfing conditions as there are for SUP length and paddleboard lengths. Flatwater.....different dynamics. Is the six man also the optimum seating arrangement given the length of the canoe at 40- 46 ft. In an unlimited canoe category.?..Would more paddlers make a difference in downwind surfing conditions ? I know that six paddlers in a 40 ft. canoe are sort of maxed as far as space. Going unlimited... would that ever mean limiting the number of seats to the "traditional" six ?
#130 Wed, 06/02/2010 - 8:21pm
I've found the length of OC6 canoe's to be counterintuitive to what I've been told for small commercial fishing boats and traditional ocean going canoes in the Pacific NW. Generally ocean going canoes aren't made over 33' feet, so they can fit in the trough of the waves..Are the lengths between waves longer in Hawaii than they are in the PNW? And does a 40'+ OC6 run into problems if they aren't? Wouldn't a redesigned and lighter 33' 0C4 be faster in those conditions?
#131 Wed, 06/02/2010 - 8:50pm
< 40', Take 1-2 guys out and add a rudder.
aloha,
pog
#132 Wed, 06/02/2010 - 10:00pm
Young bros barge max canoe length 45foot ? no rudder allowed in 6man canoes or you may as well have an engine and go powerboat racing!
#133 Wed, 06/02/2010 - 11:11pm
OC12 is faster than an OC6 though
#134 Wed, 06/02/2010 - 11:34pm
Winning times for the recent IVF world sprints
Open Men 500m V6 - Tahiti Open Men V6 500m 1 - 1:48.70
Open Men 500m V12 - Tahiti Open Men V6 500m 1 - 1:47.71
races held on different days however
Open Women 500m V6 - Canada 1 - 2:07.33
Open Women 500m V12 - Tahiti Open Women V12 500 1 - 2:09.09
Not a lot of difference in the times, but a fairly limited set of data to work from.
#135 Thu, 06/03/2010 - 4:08am
Sorry to bother again, I took time to collect some infos :
It's obvious that I won't compare with kayak results, so I focused on canoe speed races.
on a 500 m race, 2007 world championship gold records were :
C1 : 1:47
C2 : 1:40
C4 : 1:31
As a reminder, C1 is 5m20 long, C2 6m50, and C4 9 m !
If I'm not mistaken, V1 record at noumea world championship is 2:11
Longer is NOT faster, at least not always, and not in a strict relation, it's a false interpretation of the "hull speed", a rule known to be correct only with beamy boats using a lot of power (sail or engine), that kind of power we can't even dream of while paddling !
Following the canoe speed race results, they are far beyond their hull speed.
Everyone go fetch a hand-saw ! :-D
#136 Tue, 06/22/2010 - 12:16am
so we should all get stand up blades, get rid of the ama and paddle with one of our knees down and the other extended in front of us in a lunge position? Oh almost forgot, get rid of the rudder too and no switching sides, J strokes and C strokes only.
I don't think C1/2/4 paddling can even compare to OC1 or OC6. The boats and the method of propulsion are way too different. What if they lifted length and weight restrictions of flatwater Canoe and Kayak?
#137 Tue, 06/22/2010 - 3:50am
Right! Fabrice.........more length does not = more speed........hullspeed and length of C1, C2 etc is a good example.
At paddling speed, friction from wetted surface drag is greater than a hulls form drag, especially when the hull needs an outrigger for stability. Guess those C1's are going to need an outrigger if the water gets bumpy
#138 Tue, 06/22/2010 - 10:50am
@ toa moana : speed canoes and OC are actually closer than you think in terms of propulsion.
Yes, the kneel down position is now a standard, and their paddles are straight and a bit longer in the shaft.
On the other hand, when I paddle in OC (well, a va'a to be accurate) I have a leg bent under the seat, and the other extended, heel firmly planted. Some kind of inverted "czek position", I reckon.
Watch some speed canoe champion close-up on youtube for instance, you'll eventually see my point.
Same physics, same propulsion mode ... can't be that different.
@ goodwaka : That's totally what I'm trying to say : surface drag, drag, drag ...
You can feel it everytime you stop paddling, or are caught in a trough : the speed decrease is dramatic !
Of course speed canoes don't have enough freeboard, and are f***in' tippy.
Freeboard has to do with windage and wave clearance, not with hull perfs.
An outrigger is definitely the better solution as long as stability is concerned while at sea.
My conclusion : How about a 17 or 18 feet long OC1 ? a 30 ft OC6 ? worth try it, at least.
#139 Tue, 06/22/2010 - 8:23pm
fabrice said:
The kneeling position gives them a huge advantage in terms of power generation. Watch the hips, legs and body lean. The hips are going to generate more power in this kneeling position than a seated position.
Taaroa Dubois seems to be adapting his sprint paddling technique to generate more power from his hips (watch the 2008 IVF World Sprints video), but I think he is probably still at a disadvantage compared to kneeling. Does IVF allow a foot block at the front to push against?
Anyway, I'm guessing the kneeling position is responsible for the lower 500 m times for C1 vs. V1 more than waterline length.
#140 Wed, 06/23/2010 - 2:13am