Respect for Hawaii names please

Lili'u'okalani. Kamehameha. Ka'ahumanu. Kalani'ana'ole.
Seeing/hearing too much, "Queen Lili Race, King Kam Hotel, Queen K Highway, Kal Highway..."
I'm not an expert nor a native speaker. Just tired of hearing place names and names of Ali'i said incorrectly.
But hey- if you are a good friend of the family, by all means call them by their nicknames.

Submitted by novice c on Sun, 08/15/2010 - 2:21pm



with todays instant msg and txts abbreviations its a wonder people still
type out that much


#1 Sun, 08/15/2010 - 5:59pm


So, is it "Hawaii" or "Hawai'i"? Or are those the state and Big Island respectively?


#2 Tue, 08/17/2010 - 3:12am


have to agree with novice c post , respect hawaiian names


#3 Tue, 08/17/2010 - 3:47pm


So what? Is it a lack respect or mere lack of knowledge of how to spell or pronunciate indiginous words. My goodness. I'm of German, Portuguese, Hawaiian ancestry. English is my primary language. You would not know that considering how I've probably butchered the spelling of several English words in this post. Encourage the use of different languages by being constructive and positive. Playing the "respect" card is............ damn, my command of the English language as you can see is quite suspect.


#4 Tue, 08/17/2010 - 6:47pm


that and your ignorance and lazyness to learn and how to spell or say hawaiian names.


#5 Tue, 08/17/2010 - 7:02pm


Anowara-- it's always "Hawai'i"-- whether referring to the state or the island.

Novice C and KGB, I see both of your points and agree with both of you. It is vitally important that we try to spell Hawaiian names correctly, but some of us are naturally bad at language. I am probably worse than most people: I got a C in both Hawaiian and Spanish. And I write or say the word "'iakos" every day. But I think that the effort is extremely important. Especially in a global forum that is centered around a Hawaiian (or is it better to write "Hawai'ian") sport. And when someone doesn't know, they should be politely reminded....
I think that there were a couple of misspellings in this thread..
Hawaii= Hawai'i
Lili'u'okalani= Lili'uokalani
Kalani'ana'ole= Kalaniana'ole (or is it "Kalanianaole"? Does anyone know which?)
Lazyness= Laziness


#6 Tue, 08/17/2010 - 7:36pm


I have no excuse for my ignorance and lazyness. Unlike some, I am genetically predisposed to ineptness. Mahalo nui loa for reminding me of my shortcomings.


#7 Tue, 08/17/2010 - 8:09pm


Well, all of these spellings are just foreign interpretations of how to spell words in a language for which no form of writing existed. I guess at this point, there is a standardized form of written Hawaiian using the modern alphabet, but it's still just an interpretation. I doubt Hawaiian as it was spoken by native speakers is exactly replicated by a written western form of the language. When you hear Tongan or another Polynesian language spoken and compare it to the written form, this is obvious, IMO.However, I do always try to use the name that most closely resembles what an aboriginal inhabitant may have used. For example Aotearoa instead of New Zealand, and Mokolea instead of Birdshit, etc. It is a matter of at least trying to be respectful.


#8 Tue, 08/17/2010 - 9:07pm


James, I think you're spot on re: this being an issue of respect. It seems that our society at large stopped being respectful, as well as courteous, sometime ago. We call lots of people, places and things by abbreviated slang, whether from trying to be hip, mean-spirited or just plain lazy. This isn't restricted to Hawaiian names or places. Examples:

California = "Cali"
President Obama = "Obama"
San Francisco = "Frisco"
Franklin Delano Roosevelt = "FDR"
Martin Luther King = "MLK"
Las Vegas = "Vegas"
Women = MANY pejorative names!
Pick ANY ethnic/national/religious group......

I suspect that every one of us is guilty of doing this, at one time or another. I also suspect that each of us could use a primer every once in awhile on respect and courtesy toward others. End of sermon......


#9 Wed, 08/18/2010 - 6:53am


The reason of fully pronouncing Hawaiian names or referred as 'olelo Hawai'i, is because you lose the meaning thus losing the kauna and mana. Once you leave something as small as an 'okina or kahako out of the word, there's an entirely different meaning to that word. All kanaka maoli took serious effort to name a location, person, object, wind, sea conditions, etc. due to the characteristics, spirit, and stories of whatever is being named. For example naming a canoe, once the canoe has its name it's now a living entity and not another lifeless tangible object. And whatever the meaning of the name, that canoe is known to adopt those characteristics. Therefore names are very very important and not just another word that's uttered recklessly.

There are times I'm guilty of cutting Hawaiian names short only when some persons Hawaiian name is so long that it would take me literally a minute to pronounce the damn name.

Mahalo for those that put effort to learn and pronounce Hawaiian names correctly. The cool part is learning the story of why the area, person, sea conditions, etc. was given that particular name.

Birdshit island is "mokuleia".

Carlton


#10 Wed, 08/18/2010 - 8:11am


Bamskii
Isn't Bird Mokolea?


#11 Wed, 08/18/2010 - 9:11am


Its "mokuleia". I researched the name due to me being tired of hearing the place called "bird shit". Don't know if its a rock or an island. Also, look at the name patterns with the islands in the area; Mokumanu and Mokulua Islands.

Carlton


#12 Wed, 08/18/2010 - 9:23am


I stand corrected, Mokolea with the kahako over the "o". Let me do more research aside from the internet. Moko which means "rough", kind of describes the ocean conditions in the area.

Carlton


#13 Wed, 08/18/2010 - 9:53am


I believe if you go back even further the names of the hawaiian islands weren't what they are today. They actually have evolved into more hawaiian words once the hawaiian alphabet was formed. For example Molokai was originally named Morotai. The Hawaiian islands were known as the sandwich islands. Also it seems like the addition of the okina to certain words has been added when it wasn't there before. As far as I can remember from my little kid days it was always molokai not moloka'i. Which is correct I don't know just asking. Oh and when do you use the v pronunciation for Wai (pronounced VAI) and when do you use the W pronunciation waikikiki how do you decide. If were trying to be correct do we need to go to the olden days or do we need to say and right it how it is now.


#14 Wed, 08/18/2010 - 10:28am


We had considered naming the Race Around the Hat something to do with Mokoli'i. Perhaps next year we'll change the name of the race. The former just rolls off the tongue but I guess that's no excuse.


#15 Wed, 08/18/2010 - 11:00am


Using okina and kahako butchers or desecrates the language. The old Hawaiian newspapers wrote without them. Either you knew what was being written or you didn't. And that is the beauty of the Hawaiian language, where it is the traditional custom to communicate in riddles. So only those you wish to to communicate with will understand, and others won't. There was a very special purpose for multiple meanings. To predetermine the meaning with okina or kahako spoils this. Time to get rid of all those new street signs that desecrate the names.


#16 Wed, 08/18/2010 - 12:18pm


removed


#17 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 3:04pm


I totally agree with Bamskii on his explanation of the usage of the language. As for the "v" vs "w" sound in a word - if the word starts with a 'w' then the sound is the "w", if the 'w' is within the word you may use the "v" sound. I said may - you don't have to - it is a variation such as dialect. The original people of Hawai'i may have had a written language - it hasn't be recognized yet. Researchers have found polynesians with written items which resemble sanscript. I saw them in the Bisop Museum recently. Great discussion. Great questions.


#18 Wed, 08/18/2010 - 12:59pm


Eckhart: that's because tribal people, including Europeans are all connected. But then, along came Martin Luther and converted all the heathens


#19 Thu, 08/19/2010 - 5:03am


removed


#20 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 3:03pm


Mahalo Eckhart,
Really appreciate your history lesson, for it was very informative and you summed things up rather compactly.

Now imagine the poor Hawaiian who couldn't practice the indigenous religion until 1974 when the Hawaii State Statutes were revised. Until 1974, it was considered sorcery and forbidden, since it was against the Law.

But a scholar, Max Freedom Long, years ago, somehow used the missionaries own Hawaiian dictionary to discover Huna, which is gaining some popularity today. So who knows what may be hidden in Hawaiian words or names, for they are very powerful. And when used in a chant, everything resonates.


#21 Thu, 08/19/2010 - 2:14pm


Surfers have to be the worst at not respecting local names or the true name of a place,such as Tchopes,Lani's,etc...,etc....It is all about RESPECT,sometimes IGNORANCE,sometimes both.I refuse to call a place by it's abbreviation,modern name,etc...Show the way,and educate,maybe some will follow.And if you put a bumper sticker that says respect the culture,well then,do just that!


#22 Thu, 08/19/2010 - 2:19pm


Who defined that abbreviations were disrespectful? Disrespect is a lot more complicated issue than simplifing to abbreviations. If I call someone Tom and there real name is Tommy I am not being disrespectful. I find it disrespectful that someone thinks I'm being disrectful for saying kam. This comes off as a very self righteous post.
Let me abbreviate my thoughts: this is a stupid post.


#23 Thu, 08/19/2010 - 8:47pm


.


#24 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 3:05pm


@healthyearth or yearth for short, you just don't get it. If uttered incorrectly with intent, you disrespect not just a person or place, but you disrespect a community, a culture, a way of life, Hawaiian history, and the Hawaiian people. Drive up to Kamehameha Schools and tell the students, staff, and administration what you just posted. Don't be surprise you don't get a warm welcome!

Unless there's an altercation and acts of cowardice (by not posting name) while cyber bullying, the posts have been pretty informative and not stupid.

Carlton


#25 Thu, 08/19/2010 - 11:03pm


Of course Eckhart: Justice is a matter of finances.

And I do want to thank you Germans for Heinrich and Hawaii Ponoi.

Now us kids, a long time ago, sang "Nanainalii," but today, you hear something extra.

And yes, even the school we sung the anthem in, back then, also have different sounding name today, like Maemae School. The spelling the same, but sound different.

Us guys not lazy, we try to be respectful, but sometimes no can help.

So no worries KGB, I'm with you, for I know you are a hard worker, and most certainly, very respectful.


#26 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 2:04am


.


#27 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 3:05pm


Bamskii

  • It is kaona not "kauna"

Aukina

  • Each island was named as they are today, Hawai'i, Maui, Lana'i, Moloka'i, Kaho'olawe, O'ahu, Kaua'i, and Ni'ihau not 'sandwich islands"
  • For those that live and/or are from Moloka'i, it is pronounced Moloka'i or Molokai. For everyone else it is Moloka'i!
  • Traditionally, the W in Hawaiian sounds like the letter "V" in English.
  • it is Waikiki not "waikikiki"

koacanoe

  • The use of the 'okina and the kahako does not butcher or desecrates the Hawaiian language. The use of the 'okina and the kahako "...affect the pronunciation and ultimately, the meanings of these words."
  • Yes, the people of old Hawai'i did use the language in ways that delivered itself as a riddle, but the communication done in 'olelo Hawai'i was just that, a way to communicate.
  • In regards to "only those you wish to communicate with will understand, and others won't" that may true for a word or phrase used in a conversation that has some kaona behind it. Never would you find a conversation done where only a select few understood what was being said.
  • "poor Hawaiian" THAT'S A NEW ONE!!! Things happen to me everyday, good or bad, but I never refer to myself or have been referred to by others as being a "poor Hawaiian."
  • Who are you to say that the Hawaiian religion was not practiced by the "poor Hawaiian?"
  • It was 1978 not "1974" that the Hawai'i State Statues were changed. It is referred to as the 1978 Constitutional Convention.
  • "Huna" that is just as Hawaiian as say the Honolulu Airport.

erkhaet diestel

  • It is Mokolea and not "birdshit". It is like saying is that your house versus your dump.

un-healthyearth

  • You simple don't get it. That is why this post was created.

#28 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 5:26pm


Kala mai ia'u "Kanakakai", mahalo for the correction. Came on to the scene with some authority and knowledge.

Majority of the hidden meanings behind songs and chants were about sex. So when you hear a song having pua (or flower) sung in multiple verses and lines, think of its alternate meaning...

Carlton


#29 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 12:12pm


kanakakai

I followed your most recent post with interest UNTIL you got down to "erk-fart die-stool." By distorting the name of another poster as you did, it would appear that YOU may not be getting the point of this thread either. Perhaps the two of you are good friends and I'm just not "in" on your familiarity. However, it certainly smacks of the ignorance, disrespect, and lack of courtesy that many folks demonstrate when using Hawaiian "shorthand," or slang. Once again, it would behoove all of us to clean up our own acts before we denigrate others for doing the exact same thing. Aloha nui loa to all my paddling brothers and sisters.


#30 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 1:14pm


Hey healthyearth is that just you're opinion or one commonly shared opinion in you're club? Just wondering........


#31 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 1:11pm


'ai no ka 'ilio i kona lua'i=the dog indeed eats it's vomit.Kaona not too hard to figure out on this one.talk stink or wish bad things to other people,don't be surprised to have the same things happen to you.


#32 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 1:37pm


.


#33 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 3:05pm


haha. this is pretty funny, whats worse is listening to people butchering the language. im not only talking about the haoles but alot of us locals.


#34 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 3:54pm


What's with the dots Eckhart?

Anyway- I originated this post because it IS disrespectful to use improper, shortened, butchered names when referring to Ali'i as well as events, places and other things named in their honor. If they were around today and had the Kapu system in effect...we would be saying names properly, or not at all!

Other place names of Hawai'i are butchered and shortened every day- and that's wrong too.


#35 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 9:42pm


alot of us probably would be poor pheasants working the land for the alii, maybe even executed for our ignorance. my brother once told me rather defiantly, that he graduated from kamehameha school not kam school. after picking himself off the ground after i kicked him for correcting my disrepect towards kam school. he learned a valuable lesson he now knows i mean no disrespect when i say kam school. am i ignorant or disrepectful?? you tell me, my brother tried.


#36 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 4:47pm


jerryguy

This was the point I was trying to make to eckhart diestel. How would he/she like his/her name changed for the hell of it.


#37 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 5:25pm


you are both...(?)

But I'm much worse- defining abbreviation as disrespectful, disrespecting those that abbreviate things, self-righteous, and I also post stupid topics; probably because I did graduate from the same racist school on the hill in Kalihi (Kapalama to be precise).

Paddling is a cultural sport with more tradition that just famous people and racing history. It is inseparable from Hawai'i and it's culture (and Polynesian cultures as well). It incorporates cultural practices that honor people, places and events that are significant to Hawai'i. This is what makes paddling unique among sport. Paddling has an ancestry- honor those ancestors and help perpetuate the sport we gotta know where we came from to know where we are going...


#38 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 5:44pm


aue. i hate when people call me puni. my names Kapuni. 2 totally different names.


#39 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 5:57pm


Don't hassel the hof.


#40 Fri, 08/20/2010 - 7:35pm


novice c maybe i am ignorant or even downright disrespectful. yet ive never once felt slighted or got upset about the mispelt or mispronounce hawaiian words.


#41 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 12:41am


wonder what percentage of people pronounce Wahiawa correctly.


#42 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 5:08am


kanakakai: Regarding the okino and kahako, I just feel they spoil the appearance of Hawaiian words or names, which never had them before until around 1980 when I first noticed them on street signs. I thought they added them for the convenience of tourists.

Regarding "poor," as being robbed of one's spirituality, and if caught in the practice, risk being persecuted and punished. So had to practice in secret or else be prosecuted and sent to jail. Maybe I should of said unfortunate?
The Hawaii Revised Statutes of 1974 are a volume of law books that for the first time did not make practicing the indigenous religion a crime. The Statutes prior to this volume did. I am also familiar with the 1978 Constitutional Convention, since my delegate helped pass the Hawaiian Affairs proposal. Probably you are thinking about the 1968 Convention when many civil rights issues were proposed?

Now Huna is understandably controversial, but it was mentioned as an example of how studying Hawaiian words could be used to discover hidden things that we don't know about.


#43 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 5:53am


@ kanakakai
Just looked at a map of the Hawaiian Islands from 1797 and they are not the names they are today. Molokai was Morotai, Hawaii was Owhyhee, Maui was Mowe'e, Lanai was Ranai, Kaho'olawe was Tahooroa, Oahu was Woahoo, Kauai was Atooi, and Ni'ihau was named Oneeheow. Also in that period of time it seems that everything relating to the Hawaiian Islands i.e. Maps, etc. Refer to Hawaii as being the Sandwich Islands. Just wanted to know if you knew more history on this and why the name changes. Seems like they were more tahitian. (There is no "r" or "t" in the hawaiian language is there?)


#44 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 6:04am


Hoot Hoot!

You guy's really crack me up, after all you should be thanking me for bringing my beautiful Haywaiian name to other states and other countries! Pueo No Ka 'Oi dont ya know

P.S. Jason - braddahhhhhh wouldn't a proud Akamai Kanaka Maoli like yourself be paddling something more native and "indigenous" like muah instead of that hideous Czechoslovakian "sea eagle". Auwe! Imua not Ihope!


#45 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 6:53am


My bad. I will never paddle the sea eagle again. As soon as my finances allow I will be paddling something more maoli.

kauai74 - good to see the ha'aha'a perspective is alive and well; you set an excellent example. gulp (that was my pride)

Watching and hearing the language and cultural heritage of Hawai'i (Owhyhee) erode even slightly is not a good thing; especially in a sport that has such profound ties to that culture.


#46 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 8:37am


Aukina: Bradha is smart. Hawaiian language was not a written language. So when the first Malihinis came to hawaii. They tried to make it a written language. But, Hawaiian language was different sounding in some parts of Hawaii than other parts. Some used "v" some used "w". Some used both but only with certain words. Same with "L" and "r", "P' and "B", and "T" and "K", the main thing was it meant the same. The Malihinis, mainly Missionarys, want to teach from the Bible, so the simplified the language. So any words with "R"s just were replaced w/ "L" and so on. SO the hawaiian language 13 letters in the alphabet, But there were more. So the language that we hear to day is not the true form.

Even University Hawaiian is not the same as Kamehameha schools Hawaiian. And Kupuna Hawaiian is different.
They say Ni'ihau hawaiian is very similar to the ancient Hawaiian language.

But, I'm no professor. So I say, talk to the Head figures of Hawaiian language and Hawaiian studies professors at UH. They will teach u.


#47 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 12:15pm


i never mean any disrespect when i shorten words. nor do i take offense at anyone who have a hard time spelling or enunciating the language. opinions and feelings vary on how things are put into perspective. novice c you are right my ha aha a is based more on ho okano and yours is more of ha aheo. i do feel proud of my heritage, yet i also feel i dont know enough to realize my detriment to the language.


#48 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 1:15pm


As I remember it from scholol :The missionaries landed on Hawaii Island in 1820 . They learned the dialect spoken on that island. When Kamehameha conquered the other islands that dialect came with him and the missionaries further promoted it by translating the bible into it. With the other islands conquered the Hawaiian island dialect became prominent in writing and in speaking,

Kamehameha slaughtered the alii of Kauai and placed as Konohiki over the ahupuaa his kinsman and allies. His culture, his religion and his political system became paramount. Kauai still has retained some of the original dialect...as spoken in Niihau.and on the West side. It was spoken in some of the remote valleys until recent times. SInce Kauai was the first island visited by foreigners...the Kauai dialect appears on maps of the era prior to 1820.


#49 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 2:51pm


growing up in nanakuli, we were barely taught hawaiian studies. as you get older hawaiian studies almost completely disappear from all school curriculum. maybe its all propaganda to keep us kanaka maoli down lol.


#50 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 4:00pm


poidog & Aukina3

When the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions (ABCFM) came to the Hawaiian Islands in 1820, Kamehameha I (Paiea) had already passed in 1819.

No dialect followed Kamehameha I after his unification of the Hawaiian Islands. If that was the case the same dialect would have affected Ni'ihau, where the use of the "T" is much prominent than that of the "K" which is heard in many more locations of the Hawaiian Islands.

Kamehameha I did not slaughter the ali'i of Kaua'i. Kamehameha was given Kaua'i through a peaceful face-to-face treaty with Kaumuali'i in 1810.

Remembering visits to places like Tahiti by Captain James Cook, the language bank that he acquired throughout Polynesia had him and those aboard the ships that accompanied his to try and come up with a literal translation of what they heard or thought they heard of the many places they saw and/or visited. Those assumed literal translations made their way on many of the older maps that are still around today.

Some maps were created by others who may have not even visited those islands that they were drawing. The names and places were foreign to them. With that said many places were given names that were close to their traditional names but simply did not have the interpreted spellings of those places as we have them today. Other islands or island groups were given names of those explorers that re-discovered them or for those that they re-discovered them for. Such is the case with Hawai'i (Sandwich Islands - after Captain James Cook sponsor for his third voyage in to the Pacific, the 4th Earl of Sandwich).


#51 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 5:24pm


right on kanakakai, if nothing else this thread has been a great history lesson for me. i was actually enjoying eckhart's take on european history as well. it is always interesting to see how humankind's cultures have evolved, survived, and migrated

where did i put that guns, germs and steel? time to start reading it again...


#52 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 5:36pm


Nana I Ke Kumu: Look to the Source, Volume I
By Mary Kawena Pukui
Page 94

In the early days of Hawai'i, personal possessions were few, but highly valued. Poi pounders, woven mats, a man's malo or loin cloth, the stone adze of a canoe maker, the bone hooks of a fisherman, the spear of a warrior—all these were prized. But even more precious was each man's most personal possession, his name.

One's inoa was both owned property and a kind of force in its own right. Once spoken, an inoa took on an existence, invisible, intangible, but real. An inoa could be a causative agent, capable of marshalling mystic elements to help or hurt the bearer of the name. And, so went the belief, the more an inoa was spoken, the stronger became this name-force and its potential to benefit or harm.*

*This is consistent with the belief that certain words, once spoken, existed, and might even set in motion events of consequence. This was an essential concept in 'anai (curse) and hua'olelo (rash statement or threat).


#53 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 5:46pm


Before written language; chop wood, carry water.
After written language; chop wood, carry water.


#54 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 5:45pm


poidog & Aukina3

Mahalo to Kanakakai!!

Okay, so my friend is a teacher at UH in hawaiian studies and there are books that have the old olelo hawaii in them. You should read; Hawaiian Language Imprints, 1822-1899; The Hawaiian kingdom vol.1,2,3.;Ruling chiefs of Hawaii; are just some books that shows the use of the old consonants that are no used in todays hawaiian language. On the first page of Hawaiian Language Imprints, 1822-1899, it has the list of the hawaiian alphabet. the list is, A, E, I, O, U, and B, D, H, K, M, N, P, R, T, V, W. This is what the western missonaries heard and atempted to right down in english. In the book, The Hawaiian kingdom, Capt. Cook, broke down the names of the people he would meet. One person was written like so, Ka-he-kere, this is what he heard. This person was the chief of Maui, who we know after the language was changed to be Kahekili.

In my mind with out a doubt that we do not speak the same Hawaiian language of pre-contact Hawaiian.

And to debunk your Kauai slaughter story please read "Ruling chiefs of Hawaii". The title of Chap. XVI The Peaceful Transfer of Kauai to Kamehameha (Pages 187-199), I think the title will be good enough.

Get back at me!!!


#55 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 6:10pm


History is nothing more than a group of men agreeing on a pack of lies.


#56 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 8:10pm


This is all super interesting to me.

I know that this is a tangent, but it's the part that is most interesting to me.
In Chapter XVI of Ruling Chiefs of Hawai'i-- there is no actual transfer of Kaua'i to Kamehameha. Kamakau writes:

"Kamehameha had now given up the thought of going to war with Ka-umu-ali'i, believing that he could secure annexation by peaceful means. He therefore sent one of the lesser chiefs, named Kihei, as his representative to invite Ka-umu-ali'i to come to Oahu to see Kamehameha and make a treaty of peace between the two. The messenger was received by Ka-umu-ali'i with great dignity and given land and wives; he therefore never returned to report to Kamehameha... Long Kamehameha waited, hoping to meet Ka-umu-ali'i face to face. He sent messengers, but all remained on Kauai where they were given lands and wives... Ka-umu-ali'i was doubtful about coming to Oahu... In spite of the chief's silence on the subject he could see that it was not peace Kamehameha wanted, but Ka-umu-ali'i's consent to rule under Kamehameha... He therefore sent his nephew... to negotiate with Kamehameha,,, On their reporting their kind reception to the Kauai cheif, Ka-umu-ali'i finally consented to visit Oahu in person, declaring 'Since my own nephew has returned alive I will now go myself; but Kamehameha has but one object in this meeting, my giving up the government to him!'... Thus in the seventh year of Kamehameha's occupation of Oahu the two rulers met face-to-face.... When Kamehameha and his chiefs came aboard in their feather robes, Ka-umu-ali'i signaled out the [ruling] chief and grasping his hand said, "Here I am; is it face up or face down?' Kamehameha disclaimed the inference, and the chief continued, 'This is my gift at our meeting; the land of Kauai, its cheifs, its men great and small, from mountain to sea, all above and below, and myself to be yours.' Kamehameha said, "I shall not accept your land, not the least portion of your domain. Return and rule over it. But if our young chief [Liholiho] makes you a visit, be please to receive him." Ka-umu-ali'i answered, 'We have met, and I am now returning." (194-195)

He goes on to explain that many chiefs on O'ahu wanted Kaumuali'i to be killed, but Kamehameha said "this is not a time of war which would justify me in killing another chief and seizing his possessions."

So, there is no actual transfer of power explained in the Chapter "The Peaceful Transfer of Kauai to Kamehameha."

In Chapter XX "Rule and Death of Liholiho" Kamakau writes about a meeting between Liholiho and Kaumuali'i on July 24 1821 (Two years after Kamehameha's death). The conversation went like this (according to Kamakau)
Liholiho: in accordance with the words of Kamehameha... Ka-umu-ali'i shall be the ruling chief of Kauai and occupy the place inherited from his ancestors, only the name of king to belong to Liholiho, the flesh and bones to be Ka-umu-ali'i's.
Kaumuali'i: let the king take some of the lands and give them to his wives.
Liholiho: No, you shall retain your lands.
Kaumuali'i: Will not your guardians be dissatisfied with this?
Liholiho: Kamehameha I left no command in regard to the land, merely that I should be ruler

In Chapter XXI "The Childhood of Kau-i-ke-aouli" Kamakau writes about Ka-umu-ali'i's death and will. In response to the question who should be successor, he answered "Our 'son'" and in response to a question about land ownership he said "Let the lands be as they are; those chiefs who have lands to hold them, those who have not to have none." After Kaumuali'i's death, Kamakau writes "at the council of chiefs it was determined to abide by his last words and give the governorship of Kauai and Niihau to his nephew... for these islands had not at that time become a part of Kamehameha's terriroty."

Kamakau then writes about a battle between "Kauai forces" and "Hawaii men." There were a faction of Kauai chiefs who wanted a re-distribution of the land, but Kalanimoku (the chiefly representative of Liholiho) wouldn't allow it. So the Kaua'i chiefs attacked. O'ahu reinforcements were sailed in and the Kaua'i chiefs were slaughtered. Kamakau writes "For ten days the soliders harried the land killing men, women, and children..." Prisoners were brought to O'ahu and "a great deal of property was taken."

Then, in his final words on the redistribution of power on Kaua'i, Kamakau writes:
"After the battle the chiefs all came together and Ka-lani-moku redistributed the lands of Kauai." Then, in a relatively rare interjection, Kamakau writes "Was this right? What about Kamehameha's agreement with Ka-umu-ali'i? What about Liholiho's promise? What about the last will of Ka-umu-ali'i at Pakaka?... The last will of Ka-umu-ali'i, who had the real title to the lands, was not respected.... and the loafers and hangers-on of Oahu and Maui obtained the rich lands of Kauai." And so the chapter ends.

Sorry for the novel and the gigantic tangent. I just find that piece of history extremely interesting. Now back to the language discussion.

I just read an 'Olelo No'eau which says: "Aloha mai no, aloha aku: O ka huhu ka mea e ola 'ole ai." When love is given, love should be returned; anger is the thing that gives no life.
I think it's vitally important that we remain respectful of each other.


#57 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 8:14pm


.Mai ho'ohalahala ia makou,e a'o ia makou=don't criticize us,teach us.Kaua'i was never conquered.Kamehameha tried twice to invade Kaua'i,as paddlers you should know that he failed to cross Ka'ie'iewaho,the channel,defeated by a storm,and also by a sickness that overcame his fleet.It is said that he failed because his royal sacrifice of Keoua on the luakini heiau of Pu'ukohola was incomplete,Keoua having cut off his 'ule,his penis,on his way there by canoe,knowing full well that Kamehameha needed a high ranking ali'i sacrificed to complete the dedication of his heiau to his war god,Ku-ka'ili-moku.Keoua knew that he could not win his war with Kamehameha,Pele having shown whom she favored by killing Keoua's warriors on Mauna Loa.He decided to be sacrificed perhaps to avoid too many of his warriors being killed.Hawaiians spoke one language with local variations,some places using more T and R,or even sometimes the same person would go back and forth with T ,K, L, R. .the R is rolled,to a haole from Britain or the East Coast,very hard to distinguish from an L.Also,the early explorers wrote EE or E for today's I,hence Owayhee,Otaheite,and the ' O means "it is called,the name is". Missionaries wanting to publish the Bible took a vote,and K and L won over T and R,so the language was changed forever,Hawaiians quickly learning to read the Bible.The W is mostly pronounced V,the haole W being the "ua" sound,although local variations were common.The other letters of the haole alphabet are called "bible alphabet".In the old days,you could tell where someone was from from his speech,different words being used on different islands or moku,districts.The Hawaiian language being used today is what is taught in U.H Manoa,U.H Hilo,where all teachers learn their Hawaiian,it does not SOUND like the Hawaiian spoken by our Grandparents,great parents,ancestors.The reason being that the Kupuna were not made "Professors" in those PLACES OF HIGHER LEARNING,instead people who picked their brains and had DIPLOMAS,some not even Hawaiians,did.As stated above,read "Ruling Chiefs" 'o wau no me ka ha'aha'a,humbly yours,


#58 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 8:22pm


I just glad hawaiians know where to find this good stuff. Ulukau!!!


#59 Sat, 08/21/2010 - 8:31pm


A better resource is the

Mo'olelo my kupuna kane and kupuna wahine would share with me.

The lessons that I have been taught by countless kumu from mauka to makai.

Countless kupuna and makua from Hawai'i to Ni'ihau who I have had the pleasure of stepping into the lo'i and loko i'a with.

University of Hawai'i at Manoa, Hamilton Library, Hawai'i Pacific Collection (because I hate internet resources).

My own personal voyage to 'imi'ike.

"Ua lehulehu a manomano ka ikena a ka Hawaii" Great and numerous is the knowledge of the Hawaiians! ('Olelo No'eau #2814)


#60 Sun, 08/22/2010 - 12:01am


As a person of European and Native American heritage, this is incredibly interesting information and history. My undergraduate major was history, and so much of the Hawaiian experience parallels the histories of my varied lineages. It just serves to remind me, once again, that we are much more alike than different. Let us all continue to respectfully celebrate our individual variations, but also continue to embrace our commonality. Mahalo to all for sharing.


#61 Sun, 08/22/2010 - 3:24am


Mahalo to all the above for all the insights and corrections to my skewed view of things. As far as Kauai goes...Na Pua Alii O Kauai is a good read. In 1824 the alii of Kauai did rebel, they lost their lands and they were conquered. They used mainly traditional weapons and could not stand against the European armed forces from the South.

As a haole....I always feel and always will feel like a visitor here... no matter how long I am here. I think as a visitor I need to respect the host culture and support it...Learning about it, not trying to change it, promote ways that help it survive....like land ownership, resource stewardship, open access to beaches and inland hunting and gathering areas, water rights to supply loi, Learniing the history and the words that describe places and the past is all part of that respect and good manners for a guest.


#62 Sun, 08/22/2010 - 7:25am


haha funny poidog. all this time i thought you was one kanaka. i guess on the internet really no more racial bias, cause no can tell if you flip, kanaka, haole or whatever race. as far as haoles goes, i know some who love the hawaiian culture more than some of us kanaks. matter of fact they probably are more hawaiian than most of us. auwe sad no :(.


#63 Sun, 08/22/2010 - 4:03pm


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