These might be controversial thoughts-but I am just seeing what people think and know.
1) Are the Molokai races becoming too expensive for local paddlers? On the broadcast, they said there was a record 25% percent of crews from out of Hawaii. A couple of years ago, I posted that the Molokai races are for wealthy paddlers, another way to look at that is you can't be poor and race Molokai. You might be able to do it once every 4 or 5 years but to consistently race you must have some money. The Unlimited races will tailor to more wealthy paddlers as well and cut out the average guy or girl.
Facts:
2010 Men's race-122 Crews
2011 Men's race-108 Crews
2012 Men's race-100 Crews
I think finances play into these numbers as well as the development of more big race options-Na Pali, Pailolo, Unlimited races, Cook Island, etc.
2) Why did all of the paddlers have to go and get the wrist band put on individually by a race official the day prior to the men's race. The race is hard enough-Rigging, getting things setup, running to airport to pick up guys, and trying to eat and stay hydrated and then everyone has to jump in car and go check in. That seemed to add another hardship. OR was that just done for the age group paddler? I didn't think there was any major abuse going on.
3) The fact that a huge Catamaran was in the way of the Men's finish line sucked. I don't know which hotel owns that dock, but come on. Also the buoys that forced crews into one area and off of the beach was no good. Great for tourists but bad for paddlers and fans. Tourist win 363 days a year. On Molokai race days, they don't.
Submitted by Kona J on Mon, 10/08/2012 - 8:23am
1) The race is really expensive. From Kaua'i, we each paid around $750. Mainland crews must pay in excess of $1500 each including canoe rental. But, in the grand scheme of things... this is the biggest race of the year. Though it was brutal and I can barely move today, it was the best $750 I've spent in awhile. Why do you think the unlimited canoes would make it more expensive? If there were an unlimited iron division, you'd have less guys to split the escort cost with, but the escort cost would probably come down by almost 30% because it's an easier job. That's the only change I can see in the price. But, I agree 100% with your last statement. The reason for dwindling numbers is the increase in awesome races around the state. While it is the grand daddy of canoe paddling, the Moloka'i Hoe is not all that fun. I think that a lot of crews would rather finish their season of with Pailolo or something like that.
2) They were also putting wrist bands on the morning of and I believe they were doing it at Hale O Lono on Friday and Saturday (could be wrong about that). So, I think they did make every effort to be at the places where the paddlers were to get the wrist bands on. I imagine that the wrist bands were an effort to nullify the argument we hear every year that some of the top crews (yes, people on here have repeatedly said it about Shell) are using more than nine paddlers.
3) No comment on the catamaran, as I didn't notice it. Probably too delirious at that point to realize what was around me.
Goodjob to everyone who competed. It was the most brutal race that I've ever been a part of. At one point I yelled "40 minutes to Portlock." Two hours later I was still yelling the same thing. I am glad to be home.
#1 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 9:42am
It costs way, way more than $1,500 for a paddler to come from this end of the mainland. The actual price of the race is nothing in comparison to transportation, lodging, an escort boat, the use of an OC-6, uniforms, etc., etc.
I think things are tight all around. Ask that fellow in the White House from Hawaii.
If you think things are expensive now, wait until there's an unlimited class.
Basically there's a tug of war going on between two competing philosophies.
One side says, "Let's see how far we can push racing, getting the fastest team in the fastests boats. Let's push to the limit. This is the top competition in the sport, spare nothing." Well, that makes for expense.
The other side says, "Let's get standardized, make things inexpensive, and make everyone feel they're welcome." I was in the race with the 122 boats and someone got hurt. There may be a limit to inclusivity.
Actually from what I see, things are a fairly good compromise and maybe the registration cost keeps a lid on things...somewhat.
#2 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 11:04am
Wait, what am I missing about open class canoes that would increase the price of paddling?
And, how did the total number of entrants or inclusivity lead to that guy getting inured in 2010?
#3 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 11:08am
"One side says, "Let's see how far we can push racing, getting the fastest team in the fastests boats. Let's push to the limit. This is the top competition in the sport, spare nothing." Well, that makes for expense." CORRECTION; The fastest teams are not in the fastest boats. Maybe they appear fast because they are in better equiptment. I'm no accounteant, but not having an excort boat that cost $1k-1500 a race does appear to save money. I do both unlimited races and traditional races, I"ve done both, I KNOW for a fact that it's cheaper to do unlimited canoe racing. What do you mean "spare nothing"!! Safety which we all would say is #1 priority is much more on the side of unlimited non-escort essential racing. Maybe you meant that statement for the "standardized camp" cause in the name of tradition we are keeping dangerous escort boats buzzing all around and let's continue to keep on carring/lifting 400lb canoes in and out of the water in physically awkward and hazerdous postions. I think the "inclusive" camp is the one that is sparing nothing to keep it their way. Does hypocritacal come to mind when at the beginnning of the race they come out and say "safety is our #1 concern".
The other side says, "Let's get standardized, make things inexpensive, and make everyone feel they're welcome." I was in the race with the 122 boats and someone got hurt. There may be a limit to inclusivity. Correction: How does it make me feel welcomed to have to have a Koa canoe to be in one association, or to make me pay more to hire escort boats that maybe I can't afford. How is it more inclusive to exclude certain canoe types in your races! The open canoe class races allow you to race traditional canoes and even have extra paddlers if you choose- NOW THAT'S INCLUSIVE.
You're right about having two different camps, but your definition of the two is backwards.
#4 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 11:52am
something to think about. Shell, EDT, Livestrong. All have lots of money to play with for training, racing, coaches, etc. One thing I learned this year was the use of OXYGEN during changes. The crew next to us was sucking on it every time they got out of the boat. Money I believe is what helps these teams be so successful. I just wish our team could get some of it. Maybe that way we could have all the fancy escorts and spooky stuffs as well. :)
#5 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 12:06pm
yankee, you are so far off base that i feel like i shouldn't even reply. politics have no place in paddling. doesn't matter who the hell the president is paddling is still paddling. all that crap should be left for other forums. no matter how innocent or trivial the mention of a politician.
an unlimited boat is not more expensive. there have been a ton of comments about this on several threads. prices for an unlimited boat (which Eono race rules state must be 180#) are very comparable to a fully rigged and canvassed Bradley or Mirage. a 180# bradley is $16,000 or a spec bradley is $12,000 as shown on line. a brand new Unlimited canoe from today's builders is $13,000 to $18,000 depending on the materials you request for construction. i personally contacted two different builders to get these prices, did you?
the number of canoes in a race has little effect on injuries. how many people were hurt in Kona this year? (yes kona is different, it's an iron race!)
it's much easier to spout a bunch of purported knowledge about something you've obviously not researched than to go online and do 5 minutes of googling and make a few phone calls. kind of like throwing a jab and saying the race results aren't being updated instead of just reading the web site... don't just mindlessly echo some rumor you've heard at the water cooler and try to pass it off like you're an all knowing person. if you have questions go to the source and ask the people involved. when i wanna know what race rules are i read them. if i need results i ask where they are. if i'm interested in buying an unlimited i contact the builders. what a concept!
Jimmy, a 150cuft tank of O2 costs $75 to fill in Hawai'i. Not too spooky. ;-) I'm actually amazed that no one with a paramedic or medical background thought of doing this sooner!
#6 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 12:41pm
Don't know who "that guy" was exactly, but I heard he was a smart guy, a good paddler and shared your first name.
"Unlimited class," if taken literally, means all new technologies and designs can be incorporated, carbon fiber to technology we don't yet know exists. Normally the more complex the construction technology, the higher the price of the boat. A carbon fiber OC-1 costs more than a fiberglass OC-1. Just look at the America's Cup boats over the years. Sometime prices go down, but rarely. As soon as there are faster, lighter, technologically superior boats, then the strong clubs will sell off their fleets to replace them with the new boats. It is natural to want the competitive "cutting edge."
As for larger and larger race fields, if the race area stays the same, I believe the odds of close calls increase. If your escort boat has to keep track of 50 nearby boats and your boat in six foot seas, rather than 10 boats and your boat, I suggest the chance of a dangerous situation increases. I'm not an actuary, but I believe any insurance company would agree. You will remember I said "maybe," maybe there is a limit to every race on how many boats can come together safety. I suppose maybe there isn't, but the law of diminishing returns is everywhere.
I don't recall taking a side. If you've got issues, sure bring them up on this forum. Don't expect me to defend one side or the other. I don't have a boat in this particular boat class race.
#7 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 12:46pm
Jimmy-
you have more money than most people in the isles- sure you want to go there :)
#8 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 1:16pm
No one accused you of taking sides. Just your definitions of the sides was off. Also your argument of how innovation drives prices up has very weak foundation and lacks circumstantial details.
Hmmmm... did Aukina3 just admit to looking all around while racing!?!
#9 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 1:32pm
Luke,
You asked "Why do you think the unlimited canoes would make it more expensive?" JC9 kind of answered. I think the unlimited V6 price- to be competitive -will be near $20,000 since you need to have custom canvas. The average team will not even sniff a canoe for another year, since I think the wait list might be long. Yes the market is still developing and other builders might come forth.
When I did Kona this year, I thought it might be time for an Iron race run at same time as the men's and women's. 34 miles with a turn at Honaunau. I like this for 3 reasons-1) Good training, 2) There might be 10-20 less crews trying to switch teams at Honaunau and less crowding. 3) The Unlimited canoes are made for this.
#10 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 2:09pm
My bad Kona J. That price includes canvas and all rigging. So canoe cost is pretty much the same if not cheaper.
#11 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 2:39pm
Kona J, referencing your idea of the 34 mile iron race at Kona (great idea btw) would you propose to make the turn and just keep paddling? Or would you propose to take the break at the end of the women's leg and start with the men's? Gotta believe you would have to keep paddling. I would think that I would get really tight if I took that long of a break.
#12 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 3:23pm
Ericspin, Keep paddling "Iron" Race.
#13 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 3:29pm
"Jimmy-
you have more money than most people in the isles- sure you want to go?"
Lol haha, I love this forum. Surprising aukina has time to come on ocpaddler, thought he'd be training right now. Maybe it's his rest day since there was a race yesterday.
Why do that long brutal honaunau race when you can do the kaiwi channel flat lol
#14 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 4:04pm
9 man racing is dead, it just doesn't know it yet. The concept of having extra crew ride along in a motorboat is so 20th century. Imagine plucking a pre-contact Hawaiian out of time and plopping them into the first change off La'au point: You really think he would appreciate our adherence to the traditional ways? Hell no! After the initial freakout, I bet he'd laugh his ass off watching us use motorized fishing boats not for fishing, but to play musical chairs with the crews paddling fiberglass racing canoes that look suspiciously like coastal fishing canoes.
You don't have to be an elite athlete to safely paddle long distances without taking rests. Iron racing is more fun, and safer, and cheaper, and less wasteful of resources. And it's frigging cool! And sexy! You know what's not cool? Being chopped up by boat props! Or having your whole canoe cut in half by an errant driver! (ask Yacht Club) Or having your driver not show, or break down, and watching your whole year of training and sacrifice and $$$ twirl agonizingly quickly down the shitter.
If you're still in love with the whole dangerous/ expensive/ big hassle/ heavy canoe/ restrictive rules/ musical chairs style of canoe racing, that's fine, just know that you're worshipping a false god. And also know that the reason there will be fewer and fewer people there to join you is that the rest of us have opted for the brighter, bolder path.
#15 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 10:44pm
Although I love the concept of unlimited canoes. I wouldnt say 9 man racing is dead. Ive only paddled in an unlimited canoe a couple times not enough to know how much better it would run in the 2012 molokai hoe condition.But I do know one thing is there were many times i was a dead bird after each piece I was in.Im pretty sure I wouldnt have had any fun ironing that race. Price wise would still cost because you still need an escort boat. But I would agree with an unlimited boat with smoking conditions? That looks like alot of fun!! Although lots of good crews makes those 400lb boats fly in the surf. One thing I will point out is I think paddling more unlimited canoes can actually make you paddle spec boats faster because of the glide you are searching for. I could be wrong but I always felt thats a possibilty!!
#16 Mon, 10/08/2012 - 11:29pm
pswitzer, you got my vote. Had that thought about the flotilla while watching the race on Sunday. Just doesn't seem right to be so dependent on an oil burner when you're paddling your ass off while upholding a decades old tradition. Why not just hang four stroke kicker on the canoe?
#17 Tue, 10/09/2012 - 12:30am
For the record from a medical and physiological standpoint, there is absolutely no value to sucking up oxygen at sea level. It is money down the drain unless you are looking for some psychological benefit. In the sports medicine area, it has also been shown that there are also a lot of myths out there about oxygen usage on sidelines etc.
In a nutshell, it all comes down to training. There are no short cuts. As an example, take second place finisher EDT who probably would have won the race had it not been for a course mistake off Laau. Their training schedule: (six days a week). 5-7 AM train, 7:30-3 PM work, 4-7 train. Cross training lift & run. Besides their typically fast stroke, their changes are fast and frequent when necessary. Coming down the stretch and closing in on Shell, 3-paddler changes every 8 minutes or even less taking 3-5 seconds. They are younger than Shell and ready to take down the top dog in the upcoming Hawaiki Nui.
#18 Tue, 10/09/2012 - 12:55am
I guess some people have not seen what they do in Tahiti......race in 330 lb (?) pigs with a weight restriction. Their effort is put into fast designs, not going lower and lower with weight. Huge flotillas of spectator boats wasting resources.Yup, Tahiti is stuck in the past with their uncool style of paddling....stuck in the past. lol.
You have to laugh at some of these posts. Not sure why people have to knock different aspects of paddling. If you don't like it, fine, move along and do your thing. Too funny.
#19 Tue, 10/09/2012 - 4:50am
Maybe people should worry less about the other guy and just have fun. 9 man probably allows a lot of people to do longer races who maybe, and I say maybe, couldnt otherwise do such a long race because of conditioning?
But as far as 200 lb boats go, a whole lot of people seem to be having a whole lot of fun in them on some epic days so why copy tahiti canoes exactly when we can have races in crazy light boats and....wait for it....have fun? Isnt that what its all about?
Lili'u has iron divisions and 9 man divisions. Maybe some other races could try that? Still have to have an escort boat even if your an iron crew in channel races for safety. top crews and whoever wants to can compete iron and theres still plenty of bragging rights for winning 9 man division. Remember, different people define fun differently. Some people enjoy changes and cheering on their crews and some would rather just do the whole thing. Just a thought.
#20 Tue, 10/09/2012 - 6:37am
OUCH!
#21 Fri, 10/12/2012 - 12:43pm
*****For those of you who want to dabble on the use of oxygen topic read on, but be warned that the article is very technical and may cause those unaware to ZZZZZzzzzzzzzz. You can google the article.
******MY TAKE: Bottom line is that supplemental oxygen may help with performance but just note that there are articles out there that can support or refute just about any topic of discussion; pay attention to the source of the article.
******Something to think about: Why not just stick to the natural, good old fashioned way of paddling/training like running, crossfit, weights, and paddling (!) ??? What's next epo shots, blood doping, training at altitude? Where is the line being drawn between "professional" versus recreational paddling. I don't know. I paddle to win but mainly for "fun" and the benefits of exercise, camaraderie, the challenge of pushing my limits. Let's still keep the fun in paddling unless we're so concerned about winning by... definitely a topic for debate but is it worth it?
Better, more progressive equipment is a whole other topic so I'm not going there.
JEPonline
Journal of Exercise Physiologyonline
Official Journal of The
American Society of Exercise Physiologists (ASEP)
ISSN 1097-9751
An International Electronic Journal
Volume 6 Number 2 May 2003
Review: Environmental Exercise Physiology
EFFECT OF HYPEROXIA ON MAXIMAL OXYGEN UPTAKE, BLOOD ACID-BASE BALANCE, AND LIMITATIONS TO EXERCISE TOLERANCE
TODD A. ASTORINO1 AND ROBERT A. ROBERGS2
1Exercise Science Program, Salisbury University, Salisbury, MD, 21801, and 2Center for Exercise and Applied Human Physiology, Exercise Physiology Program, the University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, NM, 87131-1258
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Abstract 9
Introduction 9
1. Effect of Hyperoxia on Exercise Tolerance 9
2. Effect of Hyperoxia on VO2max 10
2.1 Peripheral Limitations to VO2max 12
2.2 Central Nervous System Limitations to VO2max 13
3. Effect of Hyperoxia on Oxidative Metabolism 14
4. Effect of Hyperoxia on the Blood Lactate Response 14
4.1 Effect of Hyperoxia on Blood Acid-Base Balance 15
5. Effect of Hyperoxia on Partial Pressure of Oxygen 15
6. Effect of Hyperoxia on High-Energy Phosphates 17
7. Accuracy of Gas Exchange Data in Hyperoxia 17
8. Summary 18
References 18
ABSTRACT
EFFECT OF HYPEROXIA ON MAXIMAL OXYGEN UPTAKE, BLOOD ACID-BASE BALANCE, AND LIMITATIONS TO EXERCISE TOLERANCE. Todd A. Astorino And Robert A. Robergs. JEPonline. 2003;6(2):8-20. Hyperoxia, or an increase in inspired oxygen concentration, has been used by scientists to examine exercise metabolism and physical work capacity. It is apparent that hyperoxia increases VO2max and exercise tolerance due to an increase in O2 supply to contracting muscle. Furthermore, hyperoxia increases PaO2, which may promote an enhanced diffusion of O2 in skeletal muscle. Compared to normoxia, hyperoxia may reduce PCr degradation during the metabolic transient, attenuating the magnitude of cellular disturbance characteristic of near-maximal to maximal exercise. These aforementioned increases in exercise tolerance during hyperoxia are not due to alterations in ventilation, lactate (La-), or acid/base balance in hyperoxia, as previous data report no change in these parameters compared to normoxia. In addition, it is recommended that researchers take special precautions to ensure the accuracy of gas exchange data in hyperoxia.
#22 Tue, 10/09/2012 - 8:51am
I wonder how VOG fits into the mix.
#23 Tue, 10/09/2012 - 8:58am
Yup. Agree with the VOG variable.
VOG and air quality definitely a variable especially for those affected by it for respiratory reasons. Albuterol inhalers and supplemental Oxygen definitely will help anyone with reactive airway disease breathe easier when VOG might cause bronchoconstriction. See this situation in the ER quite often.
#24 Tue, 10/09/2012 - 9:06am
Agree with @pswitzer, 9 man is dead, or dying. Iron makes sense. Coastal relays make sense. Boat changes don't make sense, and add too much complexity, and expense, and risk. Paddling the Ka'iwi Channel iron is tiring, but, if everyone is doing it, it is a level playing field. And, with technology today, there are many cheaper ways to stay safe without having a chase boat for every crew. Standard crews could be required to have a chase boat. If you choose to pass a certain competency program and carry certain safety devices (i.e. Spot satellite tracking, VHF/GPS/DSC distress call device) you are exempt from requiring a chase boat. The cost could go way down. Even if every paddler is required to have a Spot device on their body the cost would be cheaper if they could recycle the devices for other races.
Personally I think boat changes are a distraction and take me out of "The Zone." Also, part of paddling is being out there on the ocean under your own power. It is annoying to get a big mouth full of fumes from the chase boats when your body is screaming for clean oxygen.
#25 Tue, 10/09/2012 - 11:09am
... or at least have an Iron division.
#26 Tue, 10/09/2012 - 11:25am
with all the advanced athlete training, nutrition & hydration these days, many teams would be able to Iron most of these change races.
#27 Tue, 10/09/2012 - 11:43am
Ahh umm.... I guess the Spot Satellite tracker DOES NOT work in Hawaii.... oh well...
#28 Tue, 10/09/2012 - 11:32am
Deleted--Started New Thread
#29 Tue, 10/09/2012 - 12:28pm
Don't really see how change races are dying/dead. If there is an iron division for the crossings, some will opt for it, the majority will still be doing change races. I talked to some of the older paddlers, and most have said how they enjoyed having more than 9 in a crew.
Iron races are challenging, mentally and physically. But IMHO, change races are challenging in a different way, and somewhat more fascinating type of racing. I really can't think of any other team sports where you compete for hours in series of long sprints with brief recovery periods. A bit extreme, but think Usain Bolt running the 100m for 9.5 seconds, rest for 4 seconds, sprint again, rest, sprint, rest, for 4 minutes. Challenging no? How do you efficiently and specifically train for that?
#30 Tue, 10/09/2012 - 12:00pm
I would still like to see a list of the paddlers in each of the crews. It would help us follow friends and see the combinations the top crews went with.
#31 Wed, 10/10/2012 - 6:11am
The spectator's viewpoint should only be of minor importance, but still...
The announcers were floundering around, because they couldn't identify the teams or their paddlers. And it is really hard to get excited about boats and padllers you couldn't identify. The paddlers and teams need to get recognition. This is a big deal race and who knows what benefits we can get with more knowing followers...in addition to more knowing paddlers. I'll bet the Tahitian teams get more minutes of coverage in this race in Tahiti than the American teams get here. You have to make it easier for spectators to get into what is going on.
That being said,
Boat numbers need to be 3 times larger.
Registration should include color scheme/shirt color and that information plus a paddler list should be made available to the public on the internet. The teams should be responsible for updating that information right up to the start of the race.
The webcast live-feed stopped when the first 38 boats were in.
I don't know the economics of coverage, but it would have held an audience to show the remaining teams coming in. Not everyone is watching to see who finishes in the top 10. They all have stories, koa boats, teams from Timbukto, lost luggage...
Oh well, I don't care much for the Olympic coverage either.
My 2 cents.
#32 Wed, 10/10/2012 - 8:35am
speaking from my own experience and having witnessed it hundreds of times. Administering O2 to a body that is stressed, taxed, and/or suffering from exertion/overexertion will without a doubt help that body to reach a rested state faster. it's actually kind of embarrassing this wasn't thought of sooner.
Regarding unlimited canoes. it's probably important to point out that they are not just lighter. they are also much more efficient in shape. so the performance (or fun improvement as some people say) is twofold. there is less drag and less weight.
#33 Wed, 10/10/2012 - 9:58am
@jc9
I think a fear peeople have is that material will make boats so light that just that fact alone will make the boats go so fast. My boat at 200 lbs isn't going to go much faster if it weighs 100lbs. I know that sounds like 50% less weight but you need to consider all the paddlers in the canoe (6x200) 1200. So a canoe that weighs 200 lbs with all it's paddlers really weighs 1400lbs. A canoe that weighs 100 lbs with all its paddlers now weighs 1300 which is only 7% ish less weight. In the kind of waters we race in that won't matter that much. What really matters is the design I believe. Also, consider that a lot of the 400lbs canoes really have to add weight (which ads cost) just to get it to 400lbs. I think the builders call it "filler". ****The following is pure speculation. I imagine the Tahatian weight of 325lbs (canoe) is the more natural weight of a fiberglass canoe. Maybe a builder can chime in on the speculation.
The design (look, not material) of the canoes is the determining factor in the performance. (Keize correct me if I'm wrong here).
If the rules weren't so ill thought out. You could have much faster canoes that cost less than the fishing canoes. Rules could say canoes must be made of fiberglass material and need to be 40ish feet have ama. Now you have much faster and safer canoes and still everyone can afford to do it, actually more people can afford to do it now.
#34 Wed, 10/10/2012 - 10:36am
@ healthyearth : Rules in Tahiti (for V6) are
1 - must have 1 hull, 2 iatos and 1 ama.
2 - must weight at least 150kg, can be reached by adding no more than 20kg ballast.
3 - must have a crew of 6 paddlers
5 - can only be propelled by single blade paddles (no sails, ono kites, no engines, no kayak paddles).
6 - no rudder allowed, someone has to steer the va'a with a paddle.
7 - must have some kind of buoyancy (watertight compatments at the bow and stern)
8 - must be made of wood and/or composite materials. I don't like this one : AhTak made an aluminium canoe that can't race as it's considered illegal.
9 - no electrical or automatic bailer system allowed.
10 - no kind of footplate to push with your feet against.
#35 Wed, 10/10/2012 - 9:03pm
Just a voice from the 65+ group:
Iron races get my vote any day. We routinely paddle Molokai these days training for a minimal number of changes staying in the boat up to 90 minutes at a time. More hassle and stress plus risk of injury with changes.
The argument for change races is pretty weak these days. Just a matter of appropriate training and preparation no matter what your age. Hawaiki Nui is the best race for many reasons and one of them is that it is iron.
From the standpoint of a physician and Molokai veteran (and also having worked on the medical boats during the Na Wahine race), no question that most of the problems that come up are related to changes. Finally once again for a healthy athlete supplementary oxygen has no demonstrable significant value. Just as in the case of a whole list of supplements and other performance enhancers, anecdotal support and bad science are commonplace and the reason for this area being a billion dollar industry.
#36 Thu, 10/11/2012 - 7:59am
Eh! Pekelo:
How about high altitude training? Two weeks training at high altitude before the Molokai Hoe should do it, and return just in time for the race. Maybe us geezers would benefit?
#37 Thu, 10/11/2012 - 11:34am
The first crews that crossed in 1954 were iron. I think it is a great idea to consider for the 60th anniversary. An iron category. I think it is important to also realize that the great thing about the Hoe is that it appeals to everyone. The stories of triumph from the average paddler and the journey leading up to the race is as important as that of the elite competitive paddler. Let's all keep in mind that this race is tradition and a sanctioned OHCRA race whose mission is to perpetuate the sport to make it more accessible to everyone.
FYI: We are sorry that the live web cast ended early. Truthfully we were not prepared for such a long race when it came to the live feed. Something we will fix. He did stop it at 2:40pm. Duly noted.
EMCEE: We create an MC list from the registered paddler list. You guys need to either type in your names or write clearly.
Creating a team list...food for thought. Let's see how feasible that is...not something that is usually done but we can look into it.
It was a long and brutal race but that is what is so appealing to the Hoe. You never know what you are going to get until you are smack dab in the middle of it..thanks for all of your great ideas....
#38 Thu, 10/11/2012 - 12:29pm
Sleeping at high altitude helps rather than training at high altitude because you will not get the maximum benefit of a workout without the oxygen at sea level. this is why some professional athletes sleep in hypoxic tents and train at sea level.
I believe there is some evidence that high altitude training helps, but you must stay in the high altitude for a prolonged period, more than two weeks. thus, there is common misconception that high altitude training automatically entails some sort of athletic benefit.
#39 Thu, 10/11/2012 - 12:38pm
I would like to help out HealthyEarth and additionally help to inform others concerning more recent developments in canoe design and construction. However, before I do, let’s remind ourselves that boat building is one of humanities oldest known trades and the oldest known boat is of course a canoe and it’s something like 7,000 years old.
It turns out that the shape of a “racing” canoe does depend on the weight and vice versa. This is because outrigger canoes are surface vessels and thus possess a waterline. If one were to pick up a high school level physics book and read the section on hydrostatics and in particular Archimedes’ Principle, then one may begin to understand. Additionally the materials used will certainly have an impact on not just the weight but also the strength, stiffness, and durability of the canoe. In conclusion a canoe’s performance potential is equally dependent on shape, weight, materials used, crew, and of course the wild card of dynamic ocean conditions. Talk about a multi-dimensional approach right?
This may sound complicated but like anything it can be broken down into simple terms. A canoe, fortunately, is a simple structure and the most suitable materials (i.e. materials that meet design requirements) are not wildly beyond our reach in terms of affordability or application. It‘s simply a choice that the designer/ builder must make. Let it be known that the majority of unlimited canoes currently on the water are cored with wood. Also sandwich technology has been in practice since WWII. Therefore, the argument that the presence of unlimited canoes will drive lesser funded clubs out of competition because of outrageously expensive materials and technology is now and shall remain debunked. So please just stop. Speculative arguments are low, unsavory scare tactics that clutter this great website. If there's still questions regarding this topic feel free to PM me, I'm always happy to talk shop.
#40 Thu, 10/11/2012 - 1:50pm
gaucho paddler, "thats the way you debate!"
I'm pretty sure you just owned everyone on this forum, maybe even including the leader of the free world.
#41 Thu, 10/11/2012 - 2:02pm
This is another great thread on here, but I just wanna know if that's Keizo standing behind Will Ferrell?
#42 Thu, 10/11/2012 - 2:52pm
No I am not Keizo
#43 Thu, 10/11/2012 - 2:54pm
but you did sleep at a holiday in express last night.
#44 Thu, 10/11/2012 - 4:02pm
you know who I am jc9
#45 Thu, 10/11/2012 - 6:05pm
Kev, are you talking about the guy with poofy hair? I have a lot of hair, but it will never be that awesome.
Anyway, back to the debate... I thought the race was pretty great. Organizing such an event has to be a nightmare, but overall it's amazing it runs as smoothly as it does. I would think it's relativity nice to hear that one of the biggest complaints was having to get wrist bands. As far as an iron division, why not? Glory will still go to whoever crosses the finish line first. Doesn't seem like there's any harm in adding divisions.
#46 Thu, 10/11/2012 - 8:36pm
GuachoPaddler-Do you drink Dos Equis? Because you are the most interesting man on OCpaddler.
Question:
If an individual on Oahu (not a company buying in bulk) wanted to purchase all of the materials (Including what is needed for Station Molds) to build and paint an unlimited V6 and have a canvas made and ready to race what would be the cost? For Wood Core? For Foam Core? Also I think you need to consider that in Hawaii a 220 to 250 pound V6 seems to be what is the norm so you are looking at Carbon Fiber materials. Does anyone have a an idea of the cost?
Mahalo
#47 Fri, 10/12/2012 - 5:14am
Kona- As long as the beer is cold I will happily drink it, even better after long paddle.
As for your question, that is a tough one to pin down. Lots of variables and intangibles will come into play to give a good estimate. I think there is someone on Oahu with Hui Lanakila doing this. They could provide answers maybe.
In the unlikely event that someone is fully equipped and skilled in the craft of canoe building I would ballpark a one-off, cold-mold 6man at about 400 hrs. of work and $15,000 in material. Those are conservative numbers so please don't qoute me. Estimate does not include design time. Also there are literally countless ways to accomplish this task so I guess that still leaves this thing wide open.
#48 Fri, 10/12/2012 - 1:00pm
Maybe after Tahiti wins 7 times in a row, then we will drug test them....just saying.
#49 Fri, 10/12/2012 - 7:15pm
Que up "Tahitians take steroids" excuses, now:
Really?! I hope we don't go there AGAIN.
#50 Sat, 10/13/2012 - 10:45am
It's so much easier to think someone is cheating than to admit that someone is that much better at paddling than you are. Fact is elite paddlers really just work that much harder than you do. And they work harder than you every day of the year. Until you train like they do STFU, rookie. You're a frikken clown... just saying.
Kisses.
#51 Sun, 10/14/2012 - 10:32am
I feel that I left my last post a little too open ended. Please allow me to clarify. Consider $15,000 as more of a budget to cover material, services, and general overhead on the project expense sheet. Like an all encompassing estimate. We are still talking broad strokes in relation to the finer details.
The statement "$15k as a material cost" was expressed loosely. Building a 6man, one off, cold mold unlimited class canoe is feasible for less. Even if someone were a beginner they could get it done for less. In comparison, building a canoe with a shop that makes it their business logically will accomplish this task for significantly less.
This is not so much of a defense for what I said earlier as much as it's a clarification. I want people to derive some kind of value from what I post. I want them to be well informed and to ideally use what I've said to push the sport. We all love it, we all want to be a part of it somehow. We all deserve peace, freedom, and blazing downwinders (happiness).
#52 Sat, 10/13/2012 - 6:36pm
@247365
The comment was made with a little humor behind it.....7 wins in a row, drug testing...get it?
Please reconsider your personal attack. Such strong words towards someone you know nothing about may come with severe consequence...just saying. I'll appreciate a different tone in your reply...if not, you can message me and we can discuss your opinions further.
Hugs!
#53 Sun, 10/14/2012 - 8:20pm
Nope, didn't get it. Just sent you a message.
#54 Sun, 10/14/2012 - 10:56pm
For everyone in our OCP family who doesn't pay attention to pro bike racing: 7 wins + doping = Lance Armstrong joke. After Armstrong was busted there has followed a veritable "shit storm" of navel gazing, hand-wringing, and soul-searching in the cycling community about What It All Means. Tons of athletes with squeaky clean reps have come out of the woodwork to say they were doping all along too. Even amateurs competing at the local level for no money! (like us)
So was Rookie's comment actually a shot across our collective bow, to affirm and protect our simple ways, lest we spiral down into the embarrassing nightmare that bike racing has become? It's a slippery slope that starts with us grumbling about oxygen tanks, and ends with us gobbling drugs and installing extra freezers in the garage to store our blood products.
In all fairness rookie, if you bust out subtle cross-cultural references on the forum, we aren't going to get it. You need to be explicit. Like this: Paddling = Good! Bike Racing = Pathetic! Paddling + Doping = Bike Racing!
That's all for now, my testosterone/ HGH/ Chia seed smoothie is getting warm. All you other guys in the Surfski Poser division this winter are gonna be dead in the water...
#55 Mon, 10/15/2012 - 10:17am
Haha now that's entertainment. This thread has been enlightening and entertaining. Humor is where you find it! A big MAHALO for the good PG-rated dialogue!
#56 Mon, 10/15/2012 - 10:32am
Thanks for the clarification pswitzer. My bad, maybe I assumed too much that the reference to 7 wins and testing would be an easy one to figure out.
You're right Nakana, humor is where you find it! Didn't realize mine was camouflaged so well.
And to the braddahs that just don't get it....lighten the F#$% up! It's a public forum not a court of law.
#57 Mon, 10/15/2012 - 11:18am
True dat
#58 Mon, 10/15/2012 - 11:42am
Tahitian dominance has been amazing to witness, no question. Looking back over the last 15 years, it is interesting to see how Shell/Tahiti has surged to a radically different level than previous teams have been able to achieve. Faaa won two in a row in 93/94 (by 10+ minutes), and between '94 and 2002, no Tahitian teams won. Ra'i won in 2002 by a slim margin, then Lanikai/NZ Hawaii won the next three before things changed.
Paddling has always been the central athletic focus for the country in Tahiti, and as far as I know, the youth program has been strong and sponsorship for the top teams plentiful, especially compared to club teams in Hawaii. Stories of two-a-day Tahitian training have been told as long as I have been involved in the sport, and tales of 2 hr V1 journeys to 6-man practice followed by a 2 hr V1 paddle home have been told countless times.
In Hawaii, OC1 paddling has progressed immensely over the past 15 years, and for the elite local paddlers, it truly has become a year-round sport. Team Primo has included some of the best paddlers in the state, training at unprecedented levels. The progression of Hawaii paddling has evolved and Primo's 4:42 last year proves that.
How Tahiti could separate from the rest of the world seemingly overnight is remarkable. I don't know enough about what may have changed before the 2006 season through now, but considering the paddling culture hasn't undergone any fundamental or systemic change, equipment is a neutral factor and Hawaii has gotten much faster, it leaves one puzzled.
I haven't heard a logical argument from someone with intimate knowledge of Tahitian paddling culture explaining what changed and how that level of speed was elevated and maintained over the last 7 Molokai races. I can't believe it's only "they train harder." They have always trained harder and had their best athletes focused on paddling from a young age...
#59 Mon, 10/15/2012 - 2:10pm
.......and i'm still sucking comfortably on my "Herbal Tea" bottle pswitzer:-)
http://blip.tv/rambos-locker/extreme-moffat-run-810400
#60 Mon, 10/15/2012 - 3:39pm
Until 2006 the supposed chink in their armor was their "inability" to surf. They have always been outstanding flat water paddlers. Once they solved the surf riddle they proceeded to embarrass the competition.
Oh, and yes, they are better because they train harder and longer. It is as simple as that.
(Often forgotten by the younger folk on this forum is that Hawaii was once the inspiration for paddling in Tahiti. It has seesawed back and forth and now is on the side Tahiti ever since Team Hawaii won the last leg of the Hawaiki Nui Waa in 2001. I think (as the Dude says: "just ..an ...opinion...man") after Hawaii's performance, the Tahitians became motivated more than ever to push their game to a higher level, this included surfing.)
#61 Mon, 10/15/2012 - 3:07pm
It's a real shame to read some of these posts saying the Molokai Hoe and changes races in general are becomIng
boring and out dated.
My perspective is its become less credible. Why?
No drug testing!!
I read about canoe weight/design, changes/no changes, paddle type/length/construction, costs etc but talk of banned substances is taboo.
Equipment is irevalant if there's teams/individuals using drugs.
Im not pointing the finger at any teams/individuals but knowing as a competitior at any event there's some drug testing procedures in place it gives all the athletes a sense of a fair playing field.
We are naive to think that paddlers aren't taking drugs.
Us Humans steal from one another, some even commit murder but we are to assume the paddling community is clean of performance enhancing drugs. Please!!!!!
It costs an Aussie $3-4000us to do Molokai which some of us are willing to pay, but it's getting harder and harder to get another 5-8 people willing to invest there time to train and a heap of cash if at the end of the race there's more questions.
We plan to be there next year, testing or not but if there was testing I'd say we wouldn't of missed one these past 7 years.
And the talk of teams training harder, well I know we train hard (we can improve our program) and I've been to Hawaii to know u guys train hard.
I just hope the organizers see the importance of a USDA drug testing system for the 2013 Molokai hoe.
That's progress!!!
#62 Mon, 10/15/2012 - 6:29pm
Yeah, I make the decision each season about which races I want to go to based on whether they're drug-testing or not... Btthppt.
With all the other things that the Moloka'i Hoe race directors are wrestling with - iron, unlimited canoes, escort boat safety, etc. adding drug-testing for the athletes should hardly be the primary issue.
#63 Mon, 10/15/2012 - 7:33pm
Nice you are back Goto !
aloha,
pog
#64 Mon, 10/15/2012 - 7:35pm
Come to Hawaiki Nui... You will be drug tested !
#65 Mon, 10/15/2012 - 7:48pm
Thanks Hiro
Do you believe its good for the sport/event that they do drug test?
#66 Mon, 10/15/2012 - 8:44pm
Of course, who would think otherwise ? We've been asking to be tested for years now. Today, the tahitian sports minister has signed a convention with the wada, world anti doping agency... So they can now legaly test you if you're in a sport event.
#67 Mon, 10/15/2012 - 9:19pm
Perfect.
So all I'm asking is why Molokai and maybe some of the other events in Hawaii aren't following suit.
There's always talk/hearsay but never any action.
Off course there's other issues people are having with the event, me personally I think it's a great event and I hate seeing it tarnished by negative talk.
Drug testing would appease a section of the paddling community.
Australian paddling is under the the umbrella of ASADA where we can be tested in or out of competitions.
It's reassuring to know its a level playing field out there.
#68 Mon, 10/15/2012 - 9:34pm
do the IVF world sprints drug test too?
someone asked the question about why the Tahitian crews became so dominant. it seems this rise to a new level took about 15-16 years. possibly the same amount of time it takes a child who starts paddling at 9 or 10 years old to reach the age of 25. start young, teach proper technique, train correctly, and establish a base. i'm not saying 9 or 10 year olds should be training at world class levels. that would be nuts. but they can be getting in the canoe and having fun whilst also learning how to paddle properly. laying the groundwork for the next 15 years.
#69 Tue, 10/16/2012 - 7:17am
Drug testing will never get rid of drug cheats, it simply introduces doping as another aspect of the sport you need to excel at to win. Pro cyclists undergo fairly rigorous testing and they treat it as an arms race: It's ok to dope but not ok to get caught. Keep in mind, doping provides benefit during training, not necessarily the competition itself. Meaning if the Molokai Hoe were to introduce testing, they'd have to do it all year long all over the world where the competitors live. And even then people figure out ways to not get caught. Worth it? Hell no!
Any time you raise the stakes with huge prestige or money, some people will be lured to cheat. That's economics. When you're a total loser like me, you'll even cheat to win Manny's Halloween race, which is why I've got to get back to my hypoxic tent now..
#70 Tue, 10/16/2012 - 7:40am