These might be controversial thoughts-but I am just seeing what people think and know.
1) Are the Molokai races becoming too expensive for local paddlers? On the broadcast, they said there was a record 25% percent of crews from out of Hawaii. A couple of years ago, I posted that the Molokai races are for wealthy paddlers, another way to look at that is you can't be poor and race Molokai. You might be able to do it once every 4 or 5 years but to consistently race you must have some money. The Unlimited races will tailor to more wealthy paddlers as well and cut out the average guy or girl.
Facts:
2010 Men's race-122 Crews
2011 Men's race-108 Crews
2012 Men's race-100 Crews
I think finances play into these numbers as well as the development of more big race options-Na Pali, Pailolo, Unlimited races, Cook Island, etc.
2) Why did all of the paddlers have to go and get the wrist band put on individually by a race official the day prior to the men's race. The race is hard enough-Rigging, getting things setup, running to airport to pick up guys, and trying to eat and stay hydrated and then everyone has to jump in car and go check in. That seemed to add another hardship. OR was that just done for the age group paddler? I didn't think there was any major abuse going on.
3) The fact that a huge Catamaran was in the way of the Men's finish line sucked. I don't know which hotel owns that dock, but come on. Also the buoys that forced crews into one area and off of the beach was no good. Great for tourists but bad for paddlers and fans. Tourist win 363 days a year. On Molokai race days, they don't.
Submitted by Kona J on Mon, 10/08/2012 - 8:23am
I have no idea what drug testing costs. Is that an issue for the race organizers? Does anybody have real numbers on what it would cost for Molokai?
That being said, more sour grapes than anything. Are people saying that all of Tahiti is taking drugs? Every crew they send seem to place top 10. Yet, some of those teams barely break the top 30 when they race back in Tahiti.
#71 Tue, 10/16/2012 - 7:43am
I saw the Tahitians warming up Friday before the race and their ama-flying display alone told me all I need to know. PED's don't yield those kind of results. They keep winning because they are by far the most in tune with each other within their canoe.
Reality is, like all American sports, more than half our athletes are likely using them anyways. Imagine next year if Tahiti takes top honors clean while half the field fails drug tests? Probably best not to go there..
#72 Tue, 10/16/2012 - 9:21am
that was funny, Salty Dog
#73 Tue, 10/16/2012 - 9:47am
Never mind cost, the time it would take for 100 crews x 9 paddlers = 900 paddlers to do drug testing is unimaginable
#74 Tue, 10/16/2012 - 9:52am
Jeremy, I don't know if IVF does drug testing, what i know is that FTV (Tahitian Va'a Federation) does. If you're not willing to be tested, you just can't be part of the tahitian team , i.e. no world champs for you...
#75 Tue, 10/16/2012 - 12:25pm
I believe the Tahitians are clean they're more in tune with the ocean and their teams. Start young and paddle rudderless. I started paddling in 2003 and raced the molo relay in 2004 coming 24th. Didn't race again until 2007, the really long flat solo and came 5th. 2008 again solo in surf and finished 11th. Flights to Hawaii got too pricey so started paddling V1 and wanted to race in Tahiti. 2010 Aito finished 64th. 2012 finished 42nd in Aito and 15th in the Super Aito. These results show that these gains are possible and I'm clean just train and learn from everyone you meet, open yourselves to nature and get faster with hard work. Maybe I should be tested at the next race I do, I'm not from Tahiti by the way.
#76 Tue, 10/16/2012 - 2:45pm
Rarotonga Reuben?
#77 Tue, 10/16/2012 - 3:06pm
Yep, how are you Tim ? When you back for Vaka Eiva
#78 Tue, 10/16/2012 - 4:32pm
Talk about abysmally depressing exchanges.
So we're talking about how Americans can start winning against the Tahitians and discussing how innovative boat designs paddle technique, training regimen, and youth programs might help. All good stuff. Hard work and application will be rewarded.
Then we get to drug testing and the response is, everyone does it and no one ever gets caught (apparently Lance did), therefore we don't want testing. Why do I start thinking of ostriches?
Apparently we've overlooked one large bit of coaching and training, that is better living through chemistry. If we're going to build stronger youth programs, we'd better point out that we accept doping as part of racing. Then it will be clear to those entering the sport what they need to do to achieve success. And they will know the fellow they need to see is the fellow with the chemistry set and furtive eyes, not the fellow with the tan, the squint, and the shoulders.
And who's to say that good doping may get better results than innovative boat design or a faster stroke rate and make them lesser considerations?
#79 Wed, 10/17/2012 - 6:27am
People should maybe read some of the messages here- From Hiro who knows a bit more about paddling in Tahiti then most of the folks here that assume to know
"I don't know if IVF does drug testing, what i know is that FTV (Tahitian Va'a Federation) does. If you're not willing to be tested, you just can't be part of the tahitian team , i.e. no world champs for you..."
Next subject please. Make all the assumptions you want to make you feel better, but Tahiti is at the forefront of Outrigger paddling right now. In time, things may change, but based off of recent results, hard to argue the "FACT".
Now spend the energy on figuring out how to beat them on the water.
#80 Wed, 10/17/2012 - 6:36am
in fact ToKo2, Tahiti is not at the forefront of Outrigger paddling, just look at the number of medals we got in Calgary... ;)
#81 Wed, 10/17/2012 - 2:07pm
ha ha ha now thats funny
#82 Wed, 10/17/2012 - 3:48pm
Hiro- Well that's one way to slow down the Tahitian teams. Hope for another strike before next year's race. Only joking of course.
#83 Wed, 10/17/2012 - 6:32pm
IVF does, in fact, drug test.
I got to piss in a cup in Sacramento.
#84 Thu, 10/18/2012 - 11:38am
I continally find it amusing to read (& re-read) on this forum all these speculative comments about what Tahitian paddlers are and are not doing.
One thing to ask (and I think one post above briefly touched on it) is don't you think that the Tahitian paddlers - at least the ones that come to race in the Molokai Hoe - are just better paddlers?
When you look at the first 3 Tahitian teams that paddled in the recent Molokai Hoe, when they came past Diamond Head the stroke rating on Shell A was around 82, Shell B was the same and EDT was around 80, then you see the Hawaii crews go past (Livestrong, Lanikai etc.) and they were sitting on about 70-72. Doesn't that tell you something?
#85 Sun, 10/21/2012 - 2:32pm
Besides the fact that they train more, STROKE TECHNIQUE!! more efficient!!! They paddle at the surface of the water. Rather than wasting time completely berrying the blade they "scracth the top" as hawaii paddlers would put it. They also slightly turn there blades outwards and pull towards the canoe so the current and air from scracthing the top of the water goes under the canoe making it more stream line and helps lift the canoe! thats all i'll say. But hawaii has so much more to learn but no one wants to listen they only want to try and prove there own theorys.
MORE EFFICIENCY!! 82, 80 unreal the proof is right there that the stroke is tottaly different!!
#86 Sun, 10/21/2012 - 4:11pm
BAND THE LOOSERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#87 Mon, 10/22/2012 - 7:46pm
Must be the truth!haha!! Am I saying to much terauira1!lol
#88 Mon, 10/22/2012 - 11:00pm
7 time champs they know something we don't!! Off the start Edt led the race. Almost everybody followed them south by la'au. I know primo did. It was a destraction. Like a bike race 2 destract the competition well the other takes the lead. Team work. You see shell wins for a reason. The way they line up is 5 or 6 Tahitian teams come 2 outside south and north 3 middle. There a team. Team Tahiti!!!
#89 Mon, 10/22/2012 - 11:42pm
Just so I'm clear on what you're saying oneshotcharly - you think that EDT acted as a domestique for Shell Va'a, distracting or otherwise "managing" the competition, ensuring that Shell has a clear shot to finish first? EDT essentially wasn't even racing, they were just there to "protect" Shell Va'a? And I'm guessing you think, (even though you didn't mention them by name) that the other teams from Tahiti entered the race to serve the same purpose?
#90 Tue, 10/23/2012 - 7:55am
Can you also tell me where the secret movie set that we faked the moon landing at is located?
#91 Tue, 10/23/2012 - 7:56am
Goto,
Now that everyone knows. Over the last 7 years, our local club has been paid $750 a year to go hard at the start and block others and then slow down and let Tahitian clubs win. You need to get in on that.
#92 Tue, 10/23/2012 - 8:06am
It was actually one of the most odd things I've seen in a canoe race. Shell and EDT (mostly Shell) went from mid pack (by that I mean middle of the starting line), to all the way south and then back to the middle by La'au. As far as I know, nobody followed them. At La'au, Shell was like 5th and EDT and Shell 2 weren't even top ten. If it was a distraction, I don't think it worked. But I can't understand why the fastest paddlers in the world would have made such a blatant error. While it would be intriguing to think that it wasn't a mistake... I really can't bring myself to go that far.
#93 Tue, 10/23/2012 - 8:42am
At oneshotcharly- I know that usually my default reaction is to try to prove that what I do is correct. So in knowing that, I do attempt to fight the urge. Proving myself wrong is now my goal. But, I think you are selling the community short by saying that we all just want to prove our point. I think we value getting it right more the being right.
I didn't have much time to look for really good detailed video for Tahition paddling technique. I did quicky find this.
His paddle looks flush to me. Maybe it's because it's rudderless. I'm sure there is more video of six man Tahitian paddling which would be a better video to look at for you argument. So let's see some slow motion video of "top" Tahitian paddling technique. If anyone can find it let's see Shell with their paddles angled outward.
Rambo what you got in your Vault that is in HD or 3d?
#94 Tue, 10/23/2012 - 9:46am
Luke, I was in one of the escort boats in front. all I saw was Edt and shell go from mid pack like you said to way south. Behind them were maybe ten other canoes including primo and the one I paddle for. Mostly canoes who were on the outside. Shell went back up north a little well Edt and primordial stayed way south mostly the hole race. I know cause we were also south but not as far as them. I know it sounds crazy and hard believe but why not? That way Tahiti always wins nomatter what.
#95 Tue, 10/23/2012 - 1:53pm
about 5- 10 minutes before the first change, edt was leading the pack, with a about a 50 yards on shell 1 and 75-100 yards on livestrong and shell 2, behind them and way to north was Lanikai. it was voggy and visibilty was low. edt then began fade further and further south, shell 1, livestrong, shell 2, and primo followed. Edt's southerly direction became more dramatic, shell 1 then recognized the course error (by this time it was obvious because edt was cutting off the escort boat train to the south) and everyone one else followed shell 1 back north a little towards diamond head. however by the time the course correction occurred Lanikai, and the boats further nort,h had maintained their course closer to molokai and towards oahu, and had jumped maybe a quarter mile ahead within two or three minutes. Edt, at one time in a commanding position leading the race, then went from being the furthest south and at least a quarterto halfmile behind shell 1. Edt thereafter did not take a southerly route, it tried to chase down shell 1 and ended up being around a minute behind. impressive.
#96 Tue, 10/23/2012 - 4:30pm
I don't want to see this thread drop off the page so here goes.
2002 Shell win Hawaiki nu
2003 Shell travel to the Hamiltion island cup.
The results
1st team nz/hi
2nd ra'a Tahiti
3rd outrigger australia
4th shell a
They came with two teams, coaches, masassuse, chefs and hire 2 of the biggest boats on the island for support boats. They also purchase at least 1 mirage and ship it back to Tahiti.
So very professional way back then.
2004 they get a 2nd at Molokai, miss 2005 then arrive in 2006 and blow away the field with a 4.46.
And the run continues.
They have dominated Hawaiki nui with a heap of wins and never out of the top 3.
What I'm getting at is, at hammo they were just a regular top team and 3 years later they clean up Molokai.
My theory is that in those years between 03-06 they changed paddling forever.
How?
Who out there has the answers?
Id like to know specifics, not as how many sessions but what r they doing in there sessions?
Gym, running, massages alot of paddlers do that but none of us are doing what Shell are doing on the water.
Hawaiians, mainlanders, aussies they all train hard.
The speed I witnessed in 2010 was insane. Off the start they left every other team in their wake. The next approx 6 teams all hit lau point together. Shell we're 500-800m clear.
So lets here specifics, surely theres paddlers out there that know their systems.
Enlighten us.
Edt and opt seem to be following their systems and have narrowed the gap and at times beat them in Tahiti.
Primo had that great 4.42 a couple of years ago, but they she'll pulled out a 4.30
How old are these guys?
Obviously junior Developement programs help feed the system.
But how the hell do u maintain an 80 stroke rate all that way and their boat speed is Crazy.
Their training programs are revolutionary.
Hopefully this annoys/inspires some more banter
#97 Wed, 10/24/2012 - 8:01pm
what is annoying is your liberal use of the "enter" button on your keyboard.
Shell didnt start with an 80 either.
#98 Wed, 10/24/2012 - 8:07pm
Haha yr feedback is noted, but u haven't helped me
#99 Wed, 10/24/2012 - 8:10pm
haha, wish i knew. I think it is they just train harder and more than anyone else. hawaii doesnt train like the tahitians, its as simple as that.
#100 Wed, 10/24/2012 - 8:21pm
Tahitians live for this sport. We as Hawaiians, or the rest of the world for that matter, haven't gotten to that point. Don't know if we ever will. If you grew up in a place where paddlers are f---en rock stars, naturally you would do all you could to be that person. Incentive....maybe, maybe not. When was the last time you seen a pro athlete come out of Tahiti that hasn't been a surfer or paddler? Football, baseball, soccer, golf, whatever, not even 1. Too much other shit to do for the rest of us yahoo's...right? You wanna compete with these guys? First, ask yourself these questions.
Am I willing to train 5 maybe 6 days a week for the next three years, twice a day most times, on a structured program with maybe a 2 or 3 week break per year for a chance to win the Molokai Hoe and get a pat on the back for my efforts?
Can I find eleven other guys to give me the same commitment????
#101 Wed, 10/24/2012 - 9:44pm
Technique!! Just accept it.
#102 Thu, 10/25/2012 - 11:13pm
amen, Trex.
oneshot,
"just accept it" - very persuasive. as the dude says "that's just your opinion...man"
I agree technique is paramount to paddling success, but can you please name one Hawaii crew that trains as much as Shell or Edt?
at best, maybe the elite hawaii crews put in 1/2 the time, yet we wonder why we can't beat them.
In order to go 80 strokes a minute, you have to be in stellar tip top shape. There might be a handfull of hawaii paddlers who have similar training regimes as the Tahitians, but across the board for the elite crews, the Tahitians out-train Hawaii. Without a substantial training regime, you can't run 80 at the end of the race. Of course, shell and edt's technique is sound, however, if you arent running the same rpm's as shell or edt, the technique aint going to get you past them.
#103 Fri, 10/26/2012 - 9:50am
It's very simple!
MONEY and FAME.
Ever race in Tahiti has money involved.
Winning a race you are a huge "rock star" or even being a good paddler you’re recognized!
Put it all tougher you have more athletes pushing, hard training and more of money!
MONEY and FAME.
MONEY and FAME.
MONEY and FAME.
MONEY and FAME.
MONEY and FAME make the world grow!
#104 Fri, 10/26/2012 - 10:27am
To mickaus75:
Mate, I'm not Tahitian but I was lucky enough to be there a couple of times, and even more lucky to participate on a Shell Va'a training session in 2011. I won't get in details because they are very protective about their training regimen and overall culture. Sufice to say that they have their own Va'a culture and values on the top of the VERY strong Va'a culture in Tahiti. Even with the approval from the big boss to participate on the training, it took a while for the coach at that time to be confortable about it. And no video cameras were allowed...
I've been following Shell Va'a more closely since 2004, and I can say that there were a few changes in the team from 2004 to 2005. To answer your questions, I reckon that it was just a progressing development of the team. They hired more top V1 paddlers, and 'made redundant' a few. Like any other organisation, that is how they operate and it's been happening since then, including changes in the coaching staff. Different from OPT and EDT, Shell in Tahiti is a family business and decisions are made pretty quickly if races are not being won.
As it has been pointed out by other forum members, there are no big secrets. The paddlers all have 2 arms & two legs, the difference is that they are professionals. They are some of the top V1 paddlers, and they train 2 x a day including running and gym twice a week. There are no magical systems, the trains might vary depending on the season like any other sport, and there is a lot of pressure for keeping your seat in Team A. The Shell Va'a 'junior program' has started only this year by the coach Mario Cowan who came back to Shell last year, and it is already producing results. Again, they are some of the top V1 junior paddlers in Tahiti and they train very hard. I reckon it's an intelligent decision because some of the Shell A tem members are latet 20s/ early 30s. Please note that the veteran Rolan Teahui (masters 40 +) paddled with the young guns to give some guidance and experience and they ended up finishing 3rd this year at the Molokai Hoe.
From what I saw and heard, there are no revolutionary training regimes. Talent + a LOT of training + organisational support & pressure = RESULTS.
EDT is doing pretty much the same thing and they are pretty much on the same level. After OPT lost Rene Avaepi as a coach they lost the top spot. The rest of the team over there are all amateurs but they train everyday (Monday - Friday) 1.5 - 2 hrs and on Saturdays 4-5 hrs.
I hope that helps/makes sense.
Aloha
#105 Fri, 10/26/2012 - 3:34pm
feirulegui, thanks for your wonderful input. it is by far the most cogent and persuasive explanation of Tahiti's, and primarily shell's, success.
that has to be one of my favorite posts all time on ocpaddler. it's up there with my most recent favorite illustrative post:
"5 miles of deep water, warp speed downwind porn? Yes sir." - pswitzer
#106 Fri, 10/26/2012 - 3:48pm
So, bottom line is - to beat or even get close to the Tahitians, you have to train like they do (i.e. virtually full-time) and have an overwhelming love/passion for the sport. Keep it simple & do the basic things well.
#107 Fri, 10/26/2012 - 5:46pm
Now we're talkin, thanks feirulegui.
Some great insights
I noticed their race calendar this year and they don't seem to wet their canoes unless it's for atleast a 2hr Iron race. There was a 40min iron race here the other week.
Who's got some more intel????
#108 Fri, 10/26/2012 - 10:01pm
How many kids in tahiti have the opportunity to go to college? Or play others sports besides paddling and soccer? Maybe Hawaii should take away or greatly limit these options and the paddling program for youths would expand like Tahitis. Maybe not. Im not trying to knock Tahiti in any way but there are so many different opportunities here as far as activities/sports/education it probably actually hinders the number of kids thta get into and stick with paddling.
#109 Sat, 10/27/2012 - 1:20pm
Or combine them : 0
aloha,
pog
#110 Sat, 10/27/2012 - 5:25pm