China Canoes

I'm sure just about everybody whose ever googled China canoes has seen the Hypr canoe thread, but I'm curious about owner's opinions for the other canoes. Especially after maybe owning them for a little bit. There are a lot of Ozone/ Kai waa and Hurricanes out there. Also the canoes coming from Aloha Composites ( Outrigger Connection/ Paddle Sports International). What are owner's opinions? Would you purchase them again?

I'll even start. I own an Ozone Scorpius XM. It seems to be a well built canoe. Lighter than anything I've ever felt, and still solid. Keep in mind my other canoes are 10+ years old, so not really a fair comparison. It does ding easily, but I think it's the same for any double carbon canoe. I do feel the paint on the canoe is really thin, and chips easily. I do wish it was more durable. Not near as durable as gelcoat. I do like that it is seamless, just becasue I sometimes brush my thumb against the side of the canoe, and on my older canoes, it sometimes hurt my thumb. When I bought it, a Maui built canoe was about $1000 more so I wouldn't hesitate to purchase another Ozone canoe, although I would wish for more durable paint.
Any thoughts from other owners? Outrigger Connection Owners?

Submitted by kalikikopa on Sun, 04/06/2014 - 9:32pm



Seven of us here in Vancouver purchased Hurricanes last year. We too noted the thin paint and quite a few of the boats have chips. Two boats had paint actually flaking off of them and these boats were returned to the Ozone rep who replaced them with new canoes.


#1 Mon, 04/07/2014 - 8:05am


I own a maui built, carbon deck Scorpius XS. No chipped paint. But then again, I applied clear packing tape to the port & starboard gunwales where I stroke most often, protecting the coat from inadvertent paddle-strike. I paid that extra money and have been quite satisfied. :D All the best to you and yours, Pumbaa


#2 Mon, 04/07/2014 - 10:03am


The China Built Zephyrs are really in question. Five of us purchased them at the same time and two got soft spots in the first week . the builder claimed I was not strapping it properly and told my friend he shouldn't surf waves. They found excuses not to provide warranty,. All of those five now have chipping paint....and though cosmetic...no excuse. I will not buy one or recommend one again and the market will speak for itself. Made in China...caveat emptor.


#3 Mon, 04/07/2014 - 8:16pm


same manufacturer who did some Outrigger Connection canoes in China built the Hiko- same problems.

OZONE who builds Tempest, XM, XS, Ehukai is making stiff , light, very nice canoes. Back carbon iako needs to be a bit beefier as in the shoreline surf there have been some breaking. Steering cable design
is good now. Each shipment seems to have improvements.


#4 Tue, 04/08/2014 - 10:23am


Have a Storm, and have not had any issues with the paint. It looks great and I have had no chipping or cracking.

As Paddlefast stated, I did have a back iako brake on me while surfing. It didn't brake all the way through and I was able to make it into shore...still little shaky.

The customer service through Ozone has also been top notch. I emailed about my Iaku and they had new ones out to me in two days no charge.


#5 Tue, 04/08/2014 - 10:51am


The canoes being made in China at the Ozone factory are of prepreg carbon, bladder molded ("one peice" as some are calling it), and autoclaved. The hardest part of this process has always been finding a way to paint the canoes. Because of the high heat in the autoclave, there is no way to use gelcoat. The autoclave gets to 220F, and gelcoat usually fails around 140F. So the canoes need to be painted after they come out of the mold. This after-mold painting is very labor intensive, and why it is so hard to do this type of building here in the US and keep the cost down below $6500.00 per canoe, especially with a one-piece type of construction.

In 1992, a company out of Boston called Van Dusen built prepreg auotoclaved K-1s for the US Olympic team. These canoes were very stiff and eventually just about every country purchased them. They offered 2 colors, blue for the fiberglass boats and gray for the carbon boats. A glass K-1 coming in at about 24lbs was about $3800.00 at that time, and a carbon one ran around $4300.00 if my memory is correct. Again, this was in 1992.

The boats now coming out of China, at least from Ozone, are built in the same way but with a different core, and are actually way nicer than the Van Dusen's were way back then.

The strength and weight you get from a prepreg one-piece boat is amazing. Last week I watched my canoe blow off the rack in high winds and bounce 3 times. I thought it was done with. Total rookie move on my part not securing it better, but surveying the damage I saw it had only a chip in the bow and a few scratches here and there. I grabbed it and paddled for an hour and a half, and it didn't take in a drop of water. I'm pretty sure that any other canoe would have been delaminated and/or cracked.

Still, it's personal preference if you ask me. Gelcoat canoes do generally handle better off the water. They resist scratching and chipping better. They even dent a little less. But a prepreg autoclaved canoe being lighter and stiffer gives you better performance on the water, flat or rough, and they're stronger in the ocean specifically. So if you go with a boat made this way you have to be more careful when handling it off the water. For me, I value the performance aspect of a canoe. Letting mine blow off the rack notwithstanding, I just try to be a bit more careful with the handling aspect of it.


#6 Tue, 04/08/2014 - 12:18pm


Painting is 90% SKILLED prep with correct materials in suitable conditions..

aloha,
pog


#7 Tue, 04/08/2014 - 1:13pm


Thank you for your post Johnny. I do think I like having a painted canoe because I think the paint is easier to repair. Although the metalic color makes it very hard to match. Maybe I just wish it would be thicker. When we pulled a number of the canoe, it took some paint off with it.
I too have broken the rear Carbon Iako. It did make me look into aluminum iakos. But I do have to admit, I was on a large breaking wave. My common sense told me to get off the wave, but my common sense seldom wins it those situations.
I will say though, there was no other damage to my canoe other than a scratch i put in it when I strapped the ama to the broken iako with my leash to paddle back in. I would think that if the iako hadn't given way, there might have been damage to the hull or ama.
I've also talked to an owner of one of your canoes that had a mishap where their boat got thrashed in the surf with little damage. They even said they were surprised the canoe came through it as well as it did. .
The reason I started the thread was generally my opinion of my boat , and Ozone is positive. I was just wondering other's opinions and experiences.


#8 Tue, 04/08/2014 - 7:34pm


I've broken 5 Hurricane carbon iakos ... All while surfing point or shore breaks, none while downwind paddling. ( I have had one slip out of a worn collar though when surfing right on a downwind and lost my Ama, blew away in 35Kt wind, found next day)

Having said that, I've wiped out many times on my Ozone made Pegasus with aluminium iakos and never broken them or damaged the canoe where they attach.

I feel much more comfortable safety wise with aluminium iakos, the carbon ones are always on the back of my mind in challenging downwind conditions and I'm constantly checking them for cracks, weakness or wear.
I do also check the aluminium iakos as well, the pins/springs will corrode and break before the tube, so inspect them as they are internal.
R


#9 Thu, 04/10/2014 - 5:13pm


Great Topic, I just brought a Scorpius and I am waiting for it to be delivered but sounds like I need to buy a set of aluminum iakos although the water in the Bay area is nothing like being on the island.


#10 Wed, 04/09/2014 - 5:17am


I really like my Ozone made tempest - it's a great boat. Best fastest two man I ever been in. But the thing is so fragile! I'm bummed cuz it keeps cracking. I've owned probably a dozen canoes from all kinds of other manufacturers, but none have broken as easy as this one. I don't have any problems with the paint chipping, but the hull has cracked three times now in three different places. I don't even know what from. Anyways, still a great canoe, but I keep thinking I might try sell it cuz keeps costing money every time I gotta get it repaired.


#11 Wed, 04/09/2014 - 5:51am


I completely agree with Rambo.

If Ozone and other manufacturers continue to use the carbon iakos, suggest that they include or offer a well padded travel bag to protect them from potential damage. Carbon doesnt take well to impact, chips and stress cracks might go unoticed and the normal wear and knock around abuse that have no effect on aluminum might eventually take its toll.


#12 Thu, 04/10/2014 - 7:41am


Speaking of iakos: does anyone make custom iakos for the Scorpius XS?


#13 Thu, 04/10/2014 - 12:17pm


Kai waa can. Although when I was looking into them, He was really busy. Also a while ago John Martin said he could bend custom Iakos for any canoe. That was a couple of years ago though, when I was checking into replacing iakos on a very old canoe.


#14 Thu, 04/10/2014 - 1:35pm


Thanks. I'll check with Kai Wa'a and go from there.


#15 Fri, 04/11/2014 - 11:26am


Would be nice to see all boats Made in USA


#16 Sat, 04/12/2014 - 6:21am


Well if the market s willing to bere the cost of $6000-$7000 canoes that we can build them here im the US. Its one thing to build a foam core canoe, of the sorts that Kamanu, Kaiwaa, and even myself do from time to time because it dosn't require expensive processing equipment. But what Ozone is doing is completely different and requires equipment that is quite costly. An autoclave is expensive and to operate it is costly. The costruction method is extreme labor intensive and the finish work requires paint booths and rotating gantries. In mold coatings are heavier than post production parts. Yes there unfortunate durability issues but if light weight that you want than this is the process. It all comes down to labor and its associated cost, and its really not feasible here in the US unless one wants to pay $6000-$7000,

Tiger


#17 Sat, 04/12/2014 - 7:55am


You have your choice of having a canoe made in the USA or China, China canoes being usually about $500-1000 less. You have choices to buy a car made Korea, Japan, Germany or the US. It is merely a choice. Bret- what do you drive?


#18 Sat, 04/12/2014 - 8:04am


Actually I own 7 Ford trucks, 3 GMC trucks, and one Toyota truck. Yes, I like to buy American when possible, and I don't judge people that buy foreign. I've owned 5 OC-1 made in USA, and 1 made in China. Not bashing anything Chinese, just saying it would be nice to see all boats made in the USA. Don't really see the problem with that. Maybe it's a little idealistic in thinking, maybe even naive, but yeah, it would be nice to see all boats made in the US. Every single US made OC-1 that I've ever owned (OC, Tiger, Kai Waa) have all been great. Nicely built and long lasting.


#19 Sat, 04/12/2014 - 9:16am


damn Brett!!

No wonder you quit the fire department. No way you could afford 11 trucks on our salary!

Unless you live in 'em.

As for the canoes. I'll always buy local made from Odie, Kai or Kamanu. I like the fact that some local guys living in hawaii are getting work and making a living! Seems to me there have been a ton of things promised with the china boats and not too many of the promises have come true. The exception that you can get a super beautiful and ultra light boat. It's all about priorities, give and take. Paint vs Gel coat. Carbon vs Auminum. $4800 vs $4500. The debate is endless. You can get anything in China (except a Pueo2 or Pure V1). So everyone can make their own choice.


#20 Sat, 04/12/2014 - 6:03pm


Ha, yeah Jeremy, things are different post HFD for sure. I do prefer the term "moved on" rather than "quit". He he. I miss the simple station life at times, but I'm having fun in my new endeavour.
As for canoes, I guess I don't see anything wrong with US made boats, nor do I see the need to improve upon them. I also enjoy seeing guys like Karel Sr., Tiger, Kai, Kamanu pick themselves up from their boot straps, bust their asses and create a profitable local business. That's the American dream!
I love seeing guys like Scottie, Les, and Dave make killer paddles. That's the American dream! Paddling is a small market sport. I agree with you that it's great to see some local guys getting work and making a living.


#21 Sat, 04/12/2014 - 9:30pm


agreed. moved on or chose a new path are more agreeable.

I'll always cheer for the guys that make it work on home soil. it may be a simple dream, but at least I know you and a couple other people share that hope/dream.


#22 Sat, 04/12/2014 - 10:28pm


Up here in Vancouver, its hard to get any OC1's at all let alone Hawaiian made boats. Personally, I'd have dug up the extra cash for a Hawaii made boat if I had known how to get my hands on one here in Vancouver. For us, we feel fortunate that there is a source of boats....Ozone is our one choice at the moment, grateful for their Hurricanes or we'd still be paddling the beat up C-Lion club boats that are often damaged or already gone from the boat shed when we arrive for our practice time.


#23 Sun, 04/13/2014 - 4:31pm


ho'okele, not to beleaguer the point, but I know for a fact there is at least one rep in the pnw who frequents the vancouver area that orchestrates canoes from Hawai‘i. containers from Hawai‘i to the California coast and shipments to pnw happen regularly. i've seen them stuffed with boats from Tiger, Kai Wa'a, Outrigger Connection, and Kamanu. there's a reason you see so many different canoes up there...

in this day and age it rare that anyone is stuck with one choice. hell, paddlers in Russia were able to find two different brands for their first race ever! it'd be a shame if someone was walking around up there telling everyone that a certain brand is the ONLY thing available. total BS.


#24 Sun, 04/13/2014 - 6:00pm


I may be wrong about this, but I look at Ozone as a local builder that has relocated his manufacturing to China. Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling them a local company by any means. I do understand the difference between hiring local people and supporting the local economy, but wasn't Ozone formerly Maui Fiberglass? I don't know how anyone feels about him wanting to try a different manufacturing process that he couldn't make financially feasible in Hawaii so he made a factory in China. I like to think that at least his profits are brought back to Hawaii, not that it is the same or even close to the same as the wonderful and talented crew at Kamanu Composites.

And of course, I could be completely wrong so feel free to correct any of my misstatements and feel free to flame me mercilessly. I deserve it most of the time.


#25 Mon, 04/14/2014 - 1:57pm


Quality control ....
I feel confident in the quality if I know the people actually working on my canoe give a hoot about who and where its going to.
But thats my opinion.

I bet just the option to buy a Hawaii/US built canoe would pretty much put that whole argument to rest.
People are still free to choose whats important to them, and personal preference is the base of it all i guess.


#26 Mon, 04/14/2014 - 3:09pm


I'm from Vancouver and bought my Pueo via the PNW rep, it took a bit longer than it would have been if I ordered a Hurricane but so worth the wait. I prefer the US built canoes, my previous OC was a Huki, I find them more durable. I've owned a Hurricane before and my husband has a new one now and I find my Pueo is much better quality than both of these. If you know which canoe you want you just need to contact the manufacturer to find the local rep. Mad Paddler is now the Vancouver rep and has lots of OC's for sale (and in stock!), not just Hurricanes.


#27 Mon, 04/14/2014 - 5:31pm


It's a tough question, but it may be easier to "buy American" in Hawaii, where the price difference is closer, than in some parts of the US. I looked seriously into a Pueo when Kamanu announced they were sending a container of them to the mainland, having heard lots of great things about the boat. Unfortunately, by the time you add $1200 in delivery fees (to get it to the Midwest USA - I may be the only outrigger paddler in Indiana!) onto the $4200 - $4600 base price, the price is up to roughly $5500! We bought our Scorpius XS from a dealer in FL for $3500. I could have made a $700 - $800 difference work, but not $2000. Huki isn't quite as high, but it's still a $500 plus cost to a $4300 or so boat to have the boat delivered from CA (we have Huki V2-X we ordered from the factory three or so years ago, so we do have one US-built boat, and it's a great boat!). Ultimately, I decided I didn't want to invest that heavily into a Pueo until I was certain I was gung-ho into OC-1 paddling (and certain the boat was that much better than all others out there - there aren't any options to try one anywhere nearby that I'm aware of) and I wanted a boat lighter than the Huki's and with larger footwells (my feet are constricted in the V2-X). I heard a lot of great things about the Scorpius line (seemed to be fairly comparable to the Pueo in performance), it was more easily available, and I found I really enjoy paddling this boat. Thus, while I would greatly prefer to buy an American-made boat, the option wasn't really available to me in an affordable boat that I wanted to paddle. A similar situation exists with surf skis; the only American-made surf ski's I'm aware of are Huki's, which are very nice boats (and price competitive) but the one I had in the past didn't fit me well, unlike my Epic V12 which fits like a glove. With the amount of money these boats cost (no matter where they're built), performance and fit have to take priority (as well as staying financially solvent).


#28 Mon, 04/14/2014 - 5:32pm


Here's one way it was explained to me.

Say I buy a Kai Waa boat for however much it costs. Say $4500? I have no idea. Kai makes his share, his rep gets his share, the laminator gets his share, the sprayer, and so on. No idea how many people he has working with him. Say 5. So those 5 people make a living for the day. Out of those 5, 3 go buy beer and puupuus for after a paddle at the grocery store that my Filipino aunties work at (yeah on my wife's side), the fish at the store came from the guys fishing on the local boat. It was sold at the market block where the fish wrangler guys paid the crew of a fishing boat. Those fishermen buy more beer and dinner for their family. It kinda goes on forever. From me buying one canoe built IN Kai's factory many many people in hawaii make a living.

Don't get me wrong. The dudes in china have to make a living. But the way things trickle down and filter through the economy makes a HUGE difference. Yes in the end, a couple guys will get paid in Hawai‘i. That's good too. Imagine the difference if the hypothetical boat builder employs 15 people... 20?

All about choices. I'm probably totally idealistic. Saving a couple hundred bucks might be worth it. For me personally I've never seen a better made, more solid canoe than one that's been built by Tiger, Maui, Kai, or Kamanu in Hawai‘i. Are they the lightest? Probably not. How many times has the guy that won the channel had the lightest canoe in the world? How many times have I won the channel? None. Will having a bladder molded space age canoe make me win the solo? Nope. Was this comment in any way helpful? Nah.


#29 Mon, 04/14/2014 - 5:39pm


Here in the Great Down Under ( Australia ) we pay $5,500 AUS $ for a Pueo.
Our dollar is 93c for the US by the way.
Ehukai are the same.
If you want a great 0C1 , built in Australia , you have to pay to play !
I did.


#30 Mon, 04/14/2014 - 6:00pm


Great discussion, so nice to see we are a group of cognizant buyers that consider more than the obvious when making purchase choices.

JC9, I always enjoy reading your perspectives and personal touch. Comment was helpful indeed!

I think there is something to appreciate from all of the builders, each in their own way and with every upside there is a downside. I appreciate the dedication to equalizing negatives, shown by some of the builders especially.

I sure wish we could find a way to move past toxic materials & accessibility issues characterized by high prices, long waiting lists and shipping limitations. Friends and I have been talking about organizing something community based, not a business, but a way to democratically share resources to self build using local timber as primary material.

Some parts are just too difficult to tool and perfect, they also add to the build time tremendously. If a builder provided specific parts and shipped them using affordable routes (small packaging compared to a built canoe) a club or individual could build and assemble their own competitive v1, v3 or v6. If a builder/supplier was to take this on as an enterprise, their model would change from design, fabrication, fulfillment and support TO mostly design & support. Less pieces of the pie handed out to big corp (oil/chemical) while providing growth and accessibility options to the community. Buying local would be organic as local builders could sprout up all over using the designs and tools provided by supplier.

It would be a dream to do something like this, just imagine. Empower and grow the paddling community around the world while embracing commitment to economic and environmental equity.

Ok, heads out of the clouds and back to my desk job ;)
I hope everyone --including myself gets time on the water today. We all have that in common, if not our boats, the will to be on the water


#31 Tue, 04/15/2014 - 8:27am


One of the reasons I like this site, great discussions and you learn a lot.
Perspective from someone that is new to the sport:
You join a team and get the bug, everyone tells you that in order to get better you have to get a one man.
Nationality of a canoe was not in my search filter when I considered a canoe.
I knew I wanted a KaiWaa Scorpius and that is what I purchased.
Didn't know until recently there was a difference.
Guess I will have to just paddle my little Chinese Boat until the gelcoat comes off of it.
Wait,
Do the Chinese boats have gelcoat?


#32 Tue, 04/15/2014 - 10:27am


In this day and age, there appears to be very little difference between reputable China canoes and reputable local manufacturers canoes. What appears to be important to many people is either they supported a local manufacturer by choice, possibly paid a little more money for the privilege, went on a waiting list and had custom work done, or ..... they purchased a China canoe with limited colour choice, no wait and saved a few bucks.

The old "Hypr" days of poorly manufactured and supported canoes are long gone, the market sorted itself out.

Yes there are occasionally dud canoes made by China and Local, that's just percentages by numbers, but these rare are taken care of by the manufacturer and usually replaced, that's called protecting your reputation.

It's worth revisiting the main reasons why OC1 manufacturing was moved to China ..... the sport of OC1 grew so quickly no one could supply the demand, local manufacturing industry regulations changed and difficulty in sourcing affordable raw materials.

Enjoy your OC1 guys whatever their origin, they bring us all much pleasure.


#33 Tue, 04/15/2014 - 3:38pm


Thank you Rambo. I believe you answered the question I was originally answering.


#34 Tue, 04/15/2014 - 1:35pm


Ain't no difference anymore in how good the boats perform, china canoes are just for folks who value money over community.
It's not about the guys who owns the company. Those guys always get a cut. But your dollars can stay (or go to) Hawaii, trickle down effect, or send them over seas to help out the china economy. Which ends up damaging ours even further.
Think about the paddlers that you personally know who make their living building Hawaii made boats, why would you ever even consider not supporting them?! Any product you buy, if you want something that was produced with a conscience, it's going to cost more than the same one produced just for the goal of making money.

And I know that some of you guys geographically can't get US made boats either comparably priced, or at all. So this post ain't for you. It's for all the paddlers in Hawaii, CA, OR, WA, West coast Canada (apparently) Australia, and everywhere else that canoes CAN be bought for a few hundred dollars more that keep their dollars local. When you help your community, you help yourself. How greedy are you that you would choose to save a couple hundred dollars on a few thousand dollar canoe, over investing in the livelihood of paddlers in your own area?


#35 Tue, 04/15/2014 - 7:15pm


I purchased a customized china boat purely on price and availability. It was what I could afford and I didnt want to wait for a long time. My wallet is heavier too. I suppose I helped the "local" rep by buying it through him no?

Cost of doing business locally has gone up because of imposed restrictions form local govt which drastically affected the cost of building a kanu. Were these imposed restrictions done a "conscientious" manner? did it ultimately help the local guys business? Doubt it.

I'll sell my Chinese Scorpius and purchase a used Hawain made Kanu any day. You pay the difference.
Greedy my a**


#36 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 8:25am


The price difference is a few hundred bucks on almost $5000.
Yeah, let's blame the government for your choice to buy foreign made products. "It's Obama's fault that I bought Chinese."


#37 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 8:51am


Justify it all you want. As long as YOU feel better about it, right? If a couple hundred $$ and a few months wait is all your loyalty to your own people in your own sport in your own community cost, then so be it. No wonder this country's falling apart around us - dollars over sense mentality.

You said it yourself, "dumbwaka, you pay the difference." In other words, "I'm unwilling to invest my own money into supporting this country's economy. Just trying to keep my wallet heavy."


#38 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 9:57am


it's not a couple of hundred $$ but rather closer to fifteen hundred or more plus the cost of freight.

The biggest losers are people who have to pay higher prices because politicians make it harder for businesses that charge lower prices stay in business or to come into the community to start a business.
Talk to the manufacturing guys and ask them why dont you.

Despite the political myth that government is protecting you and me from big businesses charging monopoly prices, the cold fact is that far more government actions have been taken against businesses that charge low prices than against businesses that charge high prices.

For a long time, there were so-called Fair Trade Laws designed to keep low-cost businesses in general from charging low prices that drive high-cost businesses out of business.

Fortunately, enough sanity eventually prevailed that Fair Trade Laws were repealed.

So please stop making misrepresentations and make us who bought China boats look greedy,selfish and bad.

It aint that simple. You're barking at the wrong tree.


#39 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 10:39am


"Blah, blah, blah... The government made me do it!" Woof!


#40 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 10:40am


The economics of this issue is certainly not too "complex" to understand. However, politics is not economics, so politicians tend to respond to people's emotional reactions,and if economic realities stand in the way, then so much the worse for economics.


#41 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 10:46am


isn't Huki based out of NorCal?

interestingly enough, the honda accord is more expensive than a ford focus and people still buy the heck out of those things.


#42 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 11:03am


Wow SFPaddler, you're making some really really, REALLY good points that are VERY relevant. I now understand why it's not actually your choice which canoe you purchase.


#43 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 11:05am


Holy crap I don't think ive posted here for like forever. But jc9 has tempted me.

I've been out of the paddling scene so I have absolutely no business chiming in on this discussion. Here's my 2 cents:

I think for the majority of the population, money speaks the loudest. I see local farmers struggle with this. Locally grown produce is BETTER no matter how you look at it but it costs 15-100% more. Most people buy the cheap lettuce.

I think the same goes here. If you can buy a China boat and save a few bucks then most people will. Of course there is the small population that will give business to the local builders but I think 90% will go the cheaper route.

Hopefully the paint issue will be solved, sounds like the chinese are making a decent boat finally...

I always wished my one man was painted cause gel coat SUCKS to repair.


#44 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 11:05am


Yes. DUMBWAKA. Unlike you, I dont go around blaming and name calling people where they decide to spend their hard earned money I wish I was that simple minded but im not.


#45 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 11:16am


Dumbwaka and SF Paddler. Paddling is all about fun- we need to keep it that way. One of the most important reasons canoes are built in China is that shipping a container to a destination is easier, quicker, more cost effective. In almost every place where there are China canoes, there are also custom Hawaii built canoes usually at $1000 plus or more often due to the cost of shipping, period. The point is, let's promote this great sport and enjoy it no matter what kind of canoe a person paddles- at least they are paddling and enjoying the Hawaiian sport of outrigger canoe paddling.


#46 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 11:41am


agreed.


#47 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 11:55am


I think one aspect that people are overlooking is that, (I assume) Johnny, Kai and Mike probably wouldn't have their canoes built in China unless their canoes are being built in an extremely quality way.

Add to the fact that they are now able to offer their product to the paddler in a more economic way, everybody wins.


#48 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 11:55am


Money, money, money, money....

No, really. I get it guys. Let's save a few bucks regardless of the outcome for the US economy.

paddlefast, 1) I know you're not unbiased on the subject of china boats. And 2) we're all having fun on these canoes already. Never In dispute. But, having fun on your canoe while being socially irresponsible? That doesn't seem right.
And TI, quality? This isn't about quality. I said right in the beginning that the canoes coming out of china are seemingly just as strong/durable as the ones coming out of Kai's shop.

You've all said it one hundred or more times and I hear you loud and clear, "Let's spend less of our own money, and *eff it all, who gives a damn what happens to the US/Hawaiian workers."


#49 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 12:07pm


You frikkahs!

What is the first thing u do when u get something new with one big MADE IN CHINA sticker stuck on it?

Peel um off so no one sees.

Nuff said!


#50 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 12:44pm


Thank you all for answering my orginal question about the quality of the canoes. I was planning on staying out of the rest of this, but I can't help thinking about Outrigger Connection. I think of them because I can compare apples to apples. Let's say I want a Zephyr. I can go to their shop and pick one up made in China for $2900. Or I could have them custom build me one for $4400. So if I could afford a $2900 canoe, but not a $4400 canoe, then without the lower priced option I would not be able to purchase a new canoe. I'd own another old used canoe. So if I buy the $2900 Zephyr, doesn't that leave me an extra $1500 to spend taking my family to dinner, movies, a neighbor island trip, etc?
I guess you could argue that without the extra supply coming in to their shop, they'd have to hire more employees to build more canoes. Maybe, but I guessing they would sell slightly more local built canoes, but considerably less sales overall.


#51 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 12:46pm


I should add that I agree with Dumbwaka on the few hundred dollar price point. If I have, and am willing to spend the $5000 on a canoe, and I can get a comparable canoe built locally, then I'd side with my local builders. As the cost of the Ozone canoes gets closer to the price of the local canoes, it does influence my decision( Scorpius is around $3700 and an Ehukai is around $4300).

On that note, what if the tables were turned. What if the Pueo (arguably the best canoe out there) was built in China, and your local choice was limeted to let's say a Naia ( a good canoe, but not the fastest). Would you consider the best canoe even if it didn't support the local community?

DIsclaimer: I still have and like to paddle my Naia.


#52 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 12:53pm


I don't know if you want to openly admit you still paddle a naia... LOL

Everyone does NOT win with boats made in china. One reason why boats and surfboards are made in China is the lax environmental guidelines. Major environmental terrorism...


#53 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 1:26pm


I'd buy a Hawaiian made kanu if the price difference was 500 bucks,,but its NOT. It's closer to 1500 for people in the mainland or elsewhere.

The idea of labeling those who dont purchase Hawaiian made products to be greedy and dont care about the welfare of the Hawaiian workers is simply uniformed or perhaps plain stupid


#54 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 1:31pm


The process to build a carbon fiber canoe is not hard on the environment. In reality, the worst byproduct would be the odors that come off the epoxies and hardeners used in the wet layup process, and probably the paint fumes.

Other than that, the process of building a carbon fiber canoe is relatively clean comparatively.


#55 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 1:37pm


its not bad if guidelines for proper handling is followed. But imagine a place where there's no big brother watching over you...

http://www.anguil.com/case-studies/composites-fiberglass-carbon-fiber/ca...

http://www.treehugger.com/corporate-responsibility/half-of-all-chinas-wa...


#56 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 2:03pm


Considering this is in China, the last paragraph on the Anguil article is encouraging:

"The project resulted in an overall reduction of emissions and operating expenses for the carbon fiber company and they are currently considering future green initiatives with Anguil"


#57 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 2:11pm


Rambo, jc9, poops, dumbwaka, ... just like the old days.


#58 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 4:08pm


Yeah, I had this warm feeling all over and a tear in my eye on seeing PooPoo's first post for nearly 3 years. What's that quote....? Oh yeah... "Absence makes the heart grow fonder..... " haha, G'day Poops.


#59 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 5:12pm


For the fun of it check out the Chinese website Alibaba...you can buy carbon double bends for under $200 and also autoclaved prepeg Oc1 and Oc2's. Guess a lot of Chinese have taken up the Hawaii Nei sport or is it that technology, molds, etc. have been transferred to them at no cost like everything else.? Anyone who gave them the know how and the molds are totally lolo.


#60 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 6:48pm


whoa, thats crazy poidog. i just did a search…never realized.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/new-design-AOCRA-standard-carbon-f...

looks like they copied Maui's design. hope this doesn't happen to others too. that'd suck.

this one looks like it has a kai waa ama on it…not sure about the hull. pegasus?

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/fiberglass-single-outrigger-canoe_...


#61 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 7:08pm


These have been around for a few years, some where actually imported to OZ by a group of individuals for personal use and ended up being scrutineered and allowed to race here. Crazy huh? Yep, were Maui K's canoe made from his actual molds as they were his manufacturer at one time but not authorised to sell his canoes. Local authorised dealer here in OZ was not happy.


#62 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 7:15pm


Alright, alright... Since poopoopaddler made an appearance I guess I'll chime in too. >Full disclosure disclaimer: I rep Kamanu Composites canoes in WA, OR, and BC<

In theory, I agree with some of what dumbwaka is saying. It's one of the reasons I am proud to be a part of what Luke and Keizo have got going on - all of Kamanu's canoes are built in Hawai'i, USA. They employ like, twenty-something paddlers who live and spend their money right there in HI.

Someone on here mentioned comparing apples with apples, so I wanted to point out that really, Outrigger Connection doesn't currently make a one-man that in all-around performance compares with a Scorpius, Pueo, or Ehukai...
I did a quick look on the internet and found some brand new Chinese made canoes for sale through an Ozone dealer. The Scorpius XM was $3600, and the Ehukai was $4300. Now I don't know what a custom Scorpius out of Kai's shop on Maui costs, but I do know that Pueo straight out of Kailua can be bought for $4300, and range up to $4900 if you want all the fancy stuff. But we're talking apples/apples, right? Not stock mass-produced canoe vs. fully loaded, double-carbon, with custom paint job.... I can only assume that handmade Kai Wa'a canoes are somewhere in that same price range as the Pueo.
So I'm not saying that the $700 difference is chump-change, but it sure isn't no $1500 that someone was talking about up there. And if you're buying an Ehukai, well, you're just about even.

This is one of the better posts I've read on OCP in a while. Keep it up everyone! Just get your facts straight!


#63 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 7:18pm


Hey Rambo..where did that OC2 come from that is being advertised on Alibababa? And what is that all "new' canoe all about that is "autoclaved"...do not know if it one piece construction but seems like may be a rip off of some other guy's technology over there,. Guess Maui got screwed and guess what ...everyone over there is going to get screwed. OC1's in Wallmart and Costco coming soon.


#64 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 7:55pm


I would encourage mainland people looking to ship a boat ( including Canada ) to get a quote from www.forwardair.com as well.

I think you will be surprised ...

No need wait for that truck delivery guy to come around with your boat all crusty from road slime + sitting, cranked down 24/7 on small rack bars for a couple weeks.

aloha,
pog


#65 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 7:59pm


Speaking of Cheena ... I get emails from misc. manufacturers over there offering me paddle designs they sell.

One of them is something I designed locally a few years ago right off my own molds ...

Am I seeing any money from it ? Is Natural Lite a great beer ?

aloha,
pog


#66 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 8:11pm


Poidog, no not everyone is going to get screwed, most of the current OC1/ski designers have since learnt that they must have full control of or own the factory they use like Ozone, Epic, Think Kayaks etc. Most either have a trusted production manager, key people and/or visit often for months at a time.

The mistake others made was to outsource manufacturing to an existing Chinese owned factory and hand over the moulds and raw materials. Epic originally fell for that ( it was well documented on their own website) but since, now own their own factory.


#67 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 9:21pm


Thank you PoiDog. When I said comparing apples to apples, I wasn't comparing OC boats to other manufacturers. I was comparing their imported Zephyr vs the locally produced Zephyr. That evens up the better design issue. As far as the $1500, that is the price difference between the imported Zephyr vs the locally made Zephyr.
I also hope someday to be getting a new boat, and the rising prices of the imports was one of the reasons I started this thread. Personally I don't feel the Ozone boats are built to the same quality as Kamanu boats. But hey since you're here and mentioned that all Kamanu's canoes are built in Hawaii USA, I'm a little confused this quote from the Kamanu website "While the company is centered out of Kailua, O’ahu, Kamanu Composites has licensed local manufacturers in France (Woo) and Australia (Kamanu Aus) ". In the past, when I read that I formed the impression that there are two more places making Kamanu canoes for overseas sales.


#68 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 11:29pm


whoo hoo ! 15 paddlers and 100 guests online right now ... Why don't you guys say something ?

Come on don't be shy


#69 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 9:31pm


Kalikikopa, you are correct, there is a manufacturer of Kamanu making Pueo in Australia and they have a very good reputation, the owner is the coach at my club Mooloolaba.

About your comment re Ozone not being the same quality as Kamanu, I'm not sure what you mean by that, quality of what.? They both use different construction methods, without getting into details, one more hi-tech and designed to make repeatable clones to exacting standards, the other more hands on and customisable. Both are top of the game as far as their individual construction methods go and both excellent designers. The same choices are available with the Kai Wa'a canoes, who also use Ozone as their manufacture and also hand build custom boats on Maui. What a fantastic choice to have, you can be loyal to the locals if thats whats important to you and if not, you have another option. And how smart are the above brands realising they can supply canoes world wide out of China with cost savings and also custom build for the local market which are expensive to ship worldwide.

The major brands ( the ones with most of the canoes in the races) regardless of where they are made are dominating the market because they have excellent canoes and reputations, there is no "China Stigma" anymore, there is just choices and fantastic canoes.

Time to move on.
Rambo


#70 Wed, 04/16/2014 - 10:30pm


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