Hypr vs. Non- Hypr

Does anyone have any input as to how the Hypr versions of these canoes compare to their non- Hypr counterparts? I've never seen one in person but the photos sure look nice....

Submitted by Jim on Sun, 07/22/2007 - 12:36pm



hypr uses foam core layups and car paint on their boats. also they feature twist locks and do not have seams. the seats are also lower for better balance. though the only downfall is that theyre manufactured in china, which most paddlers do not prefer due to the questionable workmanship that doesnt quite compare to hawaii's own.


#1 Sun, 07/22/2007 - 11:17pm


How do you build a seamless boat from a separate deck and hull mold? Someone please explain - hype or Hypr?

Do they build a full foam plug and then wrap carbon over the whole plug with epoxy and vacuum bag?

I'd love to hear how this is done. Every top builder I know seams boat decks and hulls.


#2 Mon, 07/23/2007 - 4:02pm


I've only seen the Chinese version of the Vantage. I have an older version of the same boat so i was able to compare the two, somewhat. My friend paddled my Vantage and instantly fell in love with it. He put his order in but ended up getting stuck with a Chinese version a year later. The construction of the Chinese boat was solid....at least on the outside. The boat, however, was definitely heavier...something like 1.5 - 2# more than mine. The iakos on the Chinese boat are plasticky just like the Hurricane but solid and don't knock around like the aluminum ones on my canoe. The plastic/carbon iakos makes it tougher to horse around with its shape and length (I shortened my aluminum ones by over an inch to bring it closer to the canoe). One of the collars on the iakos got stuck on the Chinese boat and my friend ended up breaking it just to get the iako out. The boat wasn't damaged but the collar had to be replaced. I heard this problem has happened before. Unfortunately, my friend wasn't satisfied with the boat's performance and ended up unloading it. The weight, new ama/iako combo and changes to the seat probably made the canoe paddle differently than mine. I still have and love mine.

As an aside, I've never really appreciated lowered seats as much as other have. For me, the lower the seat, the higher my start position is on every stroke. I seem to exert more energy raising the paddle in a boat with a lowered seat position than in a higher boat like a Hurricane. I guess it all depends on the paddler's build, technique, etc.


#3 Mon, 07/23/2007 - 6:33pm


It's not seamless when it comes out of the mold, they cut the flanges off bog it and sand it smooth then paint it. If they tape the join that's a bonus but i don't think they do.

Oc1's will always have to be split molded (deck/hull) because there are internals that need to be fitted before closing it up.

All China boats are finished after they come out of the mold, gel coat boats mostly come out of the mold with their finished coat already applied, it's actually the first thing sprayed or brushed onto the mold (apart from the release wax)

Roto - molded ... now that's a whole new ballgame. Inject the ingredients into a closed mold heat it and spin it around. Centrifugal force does the job of coating the inside mold with an even skin of plastic, sort of even anyway that's one reason they turn out heavy.

Cheers Rambo


#4 Mon, 07/23/2007 - 7:05pm


Rambo that is my point, to advertise the boats as 'seamless' is misleading as to how boats are actually built to people/buyers who do not know much about building boats. Anyone can putty fill and smooth sand a seam and paint over it if they want to. Using that to say it's seamless as a feature is well, bogus :-)

More Hype-er than Hypr.


#5 Mon, 07/23/2007 - 7:16pm


"Invisible seam" would be more truthful.
I'm still waiting for the chrome accessories to appear as options, they look so unfinished, don't you think?

Rambo (wide eyed)


#6 Mon, 07/23/2007 - 7:25pm


Rambo, your description of the seaming of Hypr canoes is spot on. Hurricanes are colour finished the same way - post mold - it's urethane coating - not gelcoat.

the seam is faired and hidden, (invisible) but is still there.. have a look at the early Hurricanes... a black line/tape to visually separate the hull and deck - not necessary, just a visual to make them look like gelcoat canoes.

I love the idea of chrome accessories.... a la "pimp my ride" ??? chrome iakos, pedals.. maybe spinners for the wind, neon trim on the ama... where to put the boom box?....hmmm..

like poops.. i shut up now...


#7 Thu, 07/26/2007 - 12:15pm


Roscoe,
I didn't say Hurricanes were gel-coated!!
Must be the reflections off the "chrome" blinding you .... hahaa.
Or could be my poor grammar.

That black line on the Hurricane seam is perfectly positioned to mark other canoes when they brush up against you during a race. The paint comes off easily (probably water based).

Now you know what all the black scuff marks are on your Ama's and Hull's after a flurry of close racing.

Snarfblat,
One of the reasons your friends Hypr Vantage felt heavier could be because all Hypr canoes are made with "Kevlar & S-glass" as stated on their website, not carbon fiber . The Kevlar is great for penetration resistance and "S glass" is 30% stronger than regular "e glass". but neither can compete with double carbon layup for stiffness in my opinion, unless of course the Divynicell core material is thicker or they use extra fabric in the layup, which would explain the extra weight.

Maybe someone who has done repairs on a Hypr can describe the exact layup Hypr use.

I've never paddled nor even see a Hypr canoe in the flesh, so i can't comment on performance or "feel", I'll leave that to the paddlers who own them.
Cheers Rambo


#8 Thu, 07/26/2007 - 7:53pm


Here's what I have seen in my experience working on Hypr boats.

I have a part time job working in a boat repar shop and I've probably made more money doing repairs on Hypr's than some of the reps make selling them. Rambo you are correct in that they are foam core and S-Glass and Kevlar. From what I've heard Johhny Puakea of Kaku has been working on this layup method for a while except using carbon rather than glass or kevlar, and I've heard rumors of that he made a 16 LB Kaimana using foam core and carbon. The problem with how Hypr uses this method is that rather than sandwich the foam between layers of carbon, Hypr sandwiches the foam between a layer of glass and a layer of Kevlar. I've also seen Hypr's that are just glass and foam and no Kevlar. The boats are heavier because of the Glass and Kevlar but are somewhat stiffer because of the foam. However they are damaged very easily because the glass is not nearly as strong as Carbon Fiber. Also the automotive paint that is used instead of Gel-coat is much harder to work with and much more expensive than Gel-coat.


#9 Thu, 07/26/2007 - 8:29pm


Aloha Guys, Havne't had time to read all your helpful feedback for some time. All of you are correct in some degree or the other regarding our canoes but not fully understand the actual reasons for doing so:-

  1. I wanted to have no seams because I've found that seams that are not finished perfectly tended scrape your thumb as you recover IF you drive down your blade vertically. After a thousand strokes and you have a rough seam... you'll know what I'm talking about !
  2. The amount of LABOR and care it takes to finish the seam (Trim, tape and microcelled epoxy filler ) off and make it blend with the rest of the canoe takes more time than it takes to make a canoe in Hawaii. It DOES make the WHOLE canoe stronger as instead of just BONDING the seam on the INSIDE of the canoe like how other people do it, our seams are reinforced on both sides of the skin. Also, even if the canoe cracks from EXTREME bouncing and flexing in big ocean, the double protection will come it handy, you'll see right away where the problem is on the outside but it will still be safe because of the EXTRA flanges we put into the inside of the molds to join them together. So incidents of canoes coming apart at the seams has not happened with our canoes. Besides it does look darn cool, and yes, if I could have gotten more realistic looking chrome plated composite accessories, I would have added it so that our canoes look like those retro Italian speedboats from Riva. How would you like your car to have a seam running the length of the car nose to tail ??
  3. Our canoes are 93% foam core 3mm and 2mm. Coremat is much easier to work with, soft and basically an epoxy trap, it just like fabric that you just lay into the mold and trim the edges. Just about the only parts that are not foam core is the heel of the footwell. Imagine foam core sheets like plywood size, it takes A LOT of time and patience to make templates and trim, and fit by hand a 2D sheet into a 3D shape. Yes, it adds a couple of pounds of weight but we believe its well worth it. Why ? I can piss away a couple pounds of weight, or just not eat that extra plate of rice for a few days !! but the canoe SHELL, the WHOLE shell is much stiffer when working seamlessly ( pardon the pun) in the ocean.
  4. FEW people actually have DOUBLE carbon canoes made these days. Remember, everything else being equal, if you use the same weight carbon as Kevlar or S-glass, the canoe will come out SAME WEIGHT. This is the immutable universal laws of PHYSICS. The wildcard is how much epoxy you use for the lamnation. You use carbon to get a certain stiffness per pound of material used but in our canoes the stiffness comes from the thick Divinicel foam (cost more than 10times the cost of coremat ). Why waste money on carbon ( oil prices at $75 /bbl makes it very expensive ) as few can outbid Boeing for supplies. If anyone else is claiming pure carbon canoes from China, its not true, everyone is doing hybrids. The cost of carbon to buy in China is almost US$ 80 a sq m ( importation taxes of 200%)., each canoe OC-1 takes about 29 meters of material, Do the math ! few paddlers can afford it.

Only TEAM riders have them because they need it for the extra edge, and most of all, they don't have to pay for it. Paying customers want an affordable option, since they don't get free canoes every years, So our canoes are Kevlar - S-glass combos, affordable at $2,900 and looks awesome. We do build carbon canoes by special request but we do not advertise it. See picture enclosed. Yes, we do it with CLEAR, very hard to do with consistency, and expensive but ... if you really need it we can.

  1. We also automotive colors because ANYWHERE in the world, you can easily pick up matching paints and go to ANY autobody shop to fix dings and paint your canoe. We specificied Hi-Per ( thus our name ) High Performance car colors, Ferrrari, Lambo, Porsche, BMW and Mercedes. Why ?We like those cars !! Yes, we also have at least 3 coats of UV resistant CLEAR on it, so that when you POLISH you canoe you are not rubbing off the color ! When you polish your gel coat canoe, like it or not, you are taking layers of gel coat color off. Thus overtime it will fade and thin out.

We also use PPG and Valspar paints from the USA, and they are the best and most expensive to use. Try asking an autobody shop to shoot GEL COAT ! Few legal shops will do it because it is very toxic, you need extra breathinig equipment. I always look at things from myself being a CUSTOMER first. Not everyone lives in Hawaii and they need solutions when things need to get refreshed or fixed.

As to Kevlar, if we could afford to do it, I'd make a PURE kevlar foam core canoe as it will be BULLET proof !! Our canoes take quite a beating because quite rough since I lend out all canoes to all the kids ( and adults) that need to use it, it takes a lot of abuse.

Kevlar is almost as expensive as carbon but more readily available. What do you think is keeping troops alive in Iraq, carbon or Kevlar ? Always look at things in context.

  1. ULTRALIGHT canoes - Its not voodoo or black magic, you wanna make a lighter canoe, use LESS material ! It is actually CHEAPER from a materials POV. You reduce your epoxy usage and reduce the layers in your lamination, adn and also reduce the volume and surface area of the canoe design. Yes, we can make a 16lb canoe but not with foam core since it is non porous, you need to leave more epoxy in the composite cloth in the sandwich construction otherwise it will delaminate. And frankly, an ultralight is NOT a "daily driver", you use if for special occasions like Molo etc. But sometimes, that can backfire too if the waves are too aggressive, you don't want your canoe to buckle in the swells.

And RARELY are canoes made by the original builders anymore unless it is a special request. Issues of logistics and cost come into play. If you got the bucks, nothing is impossible but for mere mortals like us, we think of the "little people" who just want to paddle and have a great time and stay in great shape.

We get picked on constantly but fact is, our existence has made things better for this sport. Yes, we're not famous etc. but there many who really appreciate and love what we do that do not visit the forums. Forums essentially are place to vent thus if you take the stuff in forums too seriously, you go insane. That's the lesson I've learned from all the negativity. This is a continuing journey, and I strive to improve everyday. We already forced great changes in the availability of canoes everywhere. It is now unheard of to wait a year for "your" canoe to be built. If only one can make a living making canoes, life would be great !!

Thank you for asking such insightful questions and I hope all of you learned something new.


#10 Mon, 07/30/2007 - 1:40pm


nb1376... I just spoke with Johnny Puakea a few weeks back. He is using Coremat now for the new boats and they are much stiffer from what he says and lighter. My original Kaimana is a 24 lb hull. Johnny said the new boats - Kaimana's/Kainalu's are 20-21lbs on average.

Many builders still do build their own boats and use double carbon. Johnny P still does. Tiger still does as others do in HI. The big question for buyers is do you want to buy a China made boat or one made in NA by the builder himself. In Canada we get dinged another 10% duty for China made boats as they are not part of the NAFTA trade agreement.

That nixes any cost savings for buying from China for us.


#11 Mon, 07/30/2007 - 1:58pm


Pittbrah,

I think you just repeated what i said. Yes, coremat canoes can be made lighter because you can really squeeze down with lots of vacumn. Compresses the wall thickness of the canoe shell, and epoxy excess. In fact we use a vacumn system that is 5 times what is needed to squeeze out excess epoxy that can bleed out through the cloth, coremat and the release ply. However when you use a dense foam you maintain the wall thickness as the Divinicel is not compressible with bagging. So we actually turn down the vacumn so that not to squeeze too much out.

Remember the laws of Physics, LIGHTER = LESS material, double carbon or not.

Johnny knows what he's doing but it is not his forte to build foam core canoes because it takes way too much labor. If Johnny had to build canoes foam core, seamless and CUSTOM Metallic clear coat paints, that same canoe in Hawaii will cost you at least $5,500. Go to any shop in Hawaii and ask to have your canoe painted with PPG, Dupont or Valspar Metallic base coat / clear coat "option". All I know is the paint cost of the system is at least $450, forget about the cost of labor. "Lucky you live Hawaii " !

And yes, some of our brothers can afford that, I can't. That's why we make it a point not to duplicate exactly what our builders can do. We do not compete with our own partners' efforts. Builders can do double carbon canoes because carbon is a lot cheaper to get in Hawaii, plus the cost of labor is the builder's profit. If the builder had to hire someone else to build the canoe for him to "meet demand", the economics would be different.

I have a simple credo in life I learned in the automotive field. You can use Porsche Boxster convertible to haul compost FAST. But is it the best use of the Boxsters' talent ? Probably not ? I'd personally would use a beat up truck to do it. I believe other than building prototypes, builder talents are probably better spent on higher value efforts. Yes, original builder canoe will always be nicer for sure, but the toll on him over time is killing. literally. Trust me building canoes is backbreaking work and TOXIC.

This is what the surfing industry finally learned to do. Shapers do what they do best and production crews do what they do best.

And yes Tiger also builds canoes but in CA. He probably has the best quality in finish. Many that are patient, can wait months to get his canoe, and even when he sent 4 canoes in a 3/4 inch plywood crate, good old YB managed to crush 2 of the 4 canoes shipped. This is the problem I was referring to COST and LOGISTICS.

We sent a Vantage to SFO in a SONOTUBE ( for concrete casting ), it cost $1,200 to ship plus $400 for the sonotube. Guess what, it arrived CRUSHED. how do you crush a sonotube ? but they did, thus completely destroying the canoe inside.

Again, look at the WHOLE picture, not tunnel vision. aloha


#12 Tue, 07/31/2007 - 11:09am


Actually I did not repeat what you said. You said rarely are Canoes built by original builders anymore and using double-carbon. I just gave two good examples of that and there are others on HI and CA as well that still build their own boats.

As for shipping logistics/damages that is why boats ship or should be shipped with insured carriers. I understand the logistical risks of shipping as does any builder. Same issues apply to all boats regardless of where they are made and by whom.

Most "informed" buyers who have a history of buying boats talk to people who own other boats about boat quality, lifespans and known problems and do their research to look at THE WHOLE PICTURE as you say. I think it's great for the sport to have more boat suppliers. If you can design and make a great product that is competitive then great all the power to you.

For me it's bigger than that, it's about staying true to the guys that cut their teeth designing these boats with their own hands, ideas and experience. Not fabbing carbon copies.

It's just a personal choice everyone makes at the end of the day. If I can get a great boat from "The Man" himself at a reasonable price that is what works for me.


#13 Tue, 07/31/2007 - 1:17pm


"Johnny knows what he’s doing but it is not his forte to build foam core canoes because it takes way too much labor. If Johnny had to build canoes foam core, seamless and CUSTOM Metallic clear coat paints, that same canoe in Hawaii will cost you at least $5,500."

Actually, Johnny Puakea has been building foam core canoes for the last few months and they are coming out extremely stiff at 22 lbs and cost about $3,600.

I was wondering about the seams on HYPR canoes. You said you tape them and put epoxy filler. Is that a fiberglass tape? Doesn't epoxy filler have no structural strength? Was just curious where that extra strength is coming from...


#14 Tue, 07/31/2007 - 1:25pm


Luke, Thank you for your question. Before you jump to conclusions and take off on a tangent about what I mentioned about Johnny Puakea's abilities. Let me repeat, he is a FANTASTIC boat builder and designer. We make sure we do NOT affect his business but hopefully enhance the proliferation of his hull design to as many parts of the world as possible. Most of his canoes from the last 6 years were not made of foam cores. The only person that did that consistently was actually Steve Blyth. And frankly we hide nothing from the builders, if they choose to upgrade to foam core like what we do, so much the better and validates what we're doing. Why do you think he did it ? if not to achieve better stiffness.

Yes, you answered your own question. A gel coat foam core canoe at $3,600 is about right. $700 more is about 25% more in cost. But once you throw in a Metallic base coat clear coat paint job plus sealing and taping the seams, you will add an additional $2,000 in cost. Why because it takes an addiitional 60 hours of labour to do all the wetsanding, respray, repeat etc. Do you have any idea what it costs to do that per hour in Hawaii ?

Then you have to consider LAMINATION layers. Now if you use PURE carbon, then you can REMOVE one layer of carbon cloth or use less epoxy to achieve the same stiffness, you can save a couple lbs. BUT it certainly ain't no 16 lb canoe that was brought up in this thread is it ? We are building a 10.5 kg (23lb) Vantage ( slightly bigger volume than a Kaimana) right now in Kevlar / S-glass and extremely stiff too, but the canoe will cost a lot less. Well at least to me, $700 is a lot given I only make $5.50 / hour !!!

As to seams, It is for SEALING purposes but happens to strengthen the seam as well. NO single material component by itself offers ANY structural strength, including carbon. It is the combination of materials that makes it work. Look at sometime simple as CONCRETE, Sand, water and Cement independently do nothing but mix'em and ? Try it for yourself, put Epoxy filler with fibreglass. In fact our flanges are double on the inside. The worse thing to do is to talk and not do.

You gotta admit, we share a lot of information and everyone learns something.

As for PIttbrah, you can always argue the "letter of law" and have "specific exceptions", but you know the spirit of what I mean. There is NO DISRESPECT given to the builders. In fact we do this out of respect to them otherwise why would anyone invest everything they have to clear the logjam of canoe availability. And most of all it is a LIFESTYLE issue. Johny Puakea is a great coach as well, look at his record thus far. He's a man of many talents, why should he ONLY make as you say "fabbing carbon copies" of canoes daily. Steve Blyth has been coaching all year, and actually got together a Masters crew that did the fastest time in the State, on little canoe club in Hilo. Tiger is having a good time in CA in an luxury enclave, learning to build race cars and bikes as well, and yes building canoes too time permitting.

Yes, they have ALL paid their dues already after all these years. What you say seems to imply that somehow what we do deprives them of their livelihood or perpetuates the SHAPES they created ? Have you ever seen Tiger work his ass off in the shop, do you think it is "fun" ? This man does it as a commitment to the sport, he doesn't need the money, but he's just one guy !

If they spent the precious time they have just on PRODUCTION, how will we get NEW shapes and designs ??? Please try not being so parochial, the world is very large place and if we're really going to spread this fantastic sport all over the world, we need to involve "new blood" so that the sport can perpetuate itself other than a handful.


#15 Tue, 07/31/2007 - 3:05pm


I find most of this discussion very informative and some of it rather odd. If you do some deep digging on the net or with your paddling buddies, it appears that outriggers actually fail from time to time. I have heard about Johny's boats coming apart recently while out in races and on the water. It is kind of funny considering how much grief the Puakea crowd gives Hypr or the community about any comparison to the Kaimana. We have all heard about Hurricanes, and Tiger's coming apart. If you dig back to the early models, we hear about a Hypr breaking apart as well.

We as a paddling community are trying new composites and designs. We are also enjoying new absolutely awesome canoes being built by many different designers at an affordable price and for almost immediate delivery because they are built in China. Pushing the envelope is nothing but good for outrigger paddling. It helps us all get better equipment and have more fun with less failures in the water. But it does take trial and error getting there no matter if your name is Tiger, Johnny, or Ian.

I understand the loyalty to American or Hawaiian made products. But we all enjoy and buy and appreciate the fact that we can get really awesome canoes built in China that are of very high quality and priced affordably so that we can just get out and paddle. So, if the China boats suck crowd could lighten up a bit that would be great. Do you shop at Wallmart or Neiman's? Both sell goods there that more than meet the customers demands for quality and the price one is willing to pay.

Also, please don't drone on about boats being made in China on one guy when all of the top guys are making canoes in China. I hope that you all get the reality that Johnny, and Tiger, etc. are getting royalties from Hypr on every Holo Nui and Pahoa sold.

To me it is very simple, and I apologize if I offend anyone reading this note. If you shop at any box store, you are buying from China. Therefore, it should not make any difference to you where a product is made. It should matter tremendously how good is the product for the price that I paid.

I have several Hypr canoes. I have early models, and I have new models. I just love their design and committment to quality and innovation. I have paddled them, let friends and stangers paddle them. I have had no problems at all that Hypr did not deal with immediately. The last canoe that I bought has had about 8 different folks paddle and learn in. It is still strong fit and ready to paddle tommorrow.

Anyway, sorry to get on the band wagon of preaching. I just have a hard time dealing with hypcoracy. If you want an excellent canoe and don't want to wait for it, you have no choice but to buy it from China. If you want to pay more for a lesser quality product and wait longer to paddle it, you buy it from the USA. It is simple. Your buying habits for everything made it a reallity.


#16 Tue, 07/31/2007 - 3:39pm


Ian Foo = Haole1

nah, can't be


#17 Tue, 07/31/2007 - 4:26pm


Haole1,
Well, it took fricking FOR-EVER, but I just re-read all the posts on this thread, and with the exception of cameron (second post) not a single person said "China boats suck", much less a "crowd". (Snarfblat DID compare two boats, and in his estimation the lesser one was made in China. It was all explained pretty comprehensively.) But YOU did come right out and say "If you want to pay more for a lesser quality product... buy it from the USA." You must have a hard time dealing with all that "hypcoracy" since it seems you've got a whole mess of it all up in your face.
You and your idol Ian, sure have A LOT to say defending Hypr and telling everyone how rad they are. Well, like I've said about 1 million times, people should buy the boats they like after paddling 'em. So let the boats speak for themselves - you guys aren't convincing anyone.

...and just so you know, I wouldn't shop at Wal-Mart if you paid me to; there's no Nieman Marcus where I live; and I paddle a China made Hurricane.


#18 Tue, 07/31/2007 - 5:43pm


Anyone have an opinion of how the Hypr models "feel" compared to their non-Hypr counterparts? Just something totally unscientific, just a reaction from someone who has paddled both, kind of like Snarfblat's post but hopefully about the other models(up here they call that boat the DisAdvantage Haha). Mahalo, Jim


#19 Tue, 07/31/2007 - 6:06pm


Yes, this ALMOST seems like a pointless exercise. Apparently guys like numeroeunuch instantly assume that anyone that seems to support what we do is a "traitor" to our Hawaiian way of life. Too bad, he had nothing solid to add other than a smart ass comment.

BTW, Karel took the lead from us and his canoes are made in China, as is Kai Bartlett, Huki, Epic Surfski, Stand up Board makers, paddle boards etc. etc.- all made in Asia, as is almost 90% of what you use in your house and daily life. What planet are you guys living on ? IPODs, IPhone that people line up for "Made in China". If it was Made in USA, it certainly would not cost $499 or $599 for the IPhone !

And the first 2 IPods I bought had to be be returned for hardware and software glitches. It's not just canoes that have problems. DELL laptops catch on FIRE !!

Now if you live like the Masai tribe in African Savannah and EVERYTHING you live on is off the land, then you can be self righteous about the "high road" you're taking and being different from the rest of America. If you're doing that in Hawaii, I really take my hat off to you, truly being able to live off the land "with the labors of your own hand".

And that quip about the "DisAdvantage", that's such a thoughtful thing to say especially when you haven't felt how great it surfs. Try it before you "Dis" it !

Here's to more thoughtful discussion, and less "bile and vile'


#20 Tue, 07/31/2007 - 7:03pm


Hey Ian,

Quick question,

Why are your boats painted with the automotive paint?

I've found that it is much more expensive and harder to work with than regular gel-coat and therefore much more expensive to repair.

Just wondering.


#21 Tue, 07/31/2007 - 8:07pm


But is it Chinese automotive paint? And are Chinese automobiles stiffer than American?


#22 Tue, 07/31/2007 - 10:39pm


They probably call it that 'cause most races are in flat conditions up here. Sorry 'bout that, chief.


#23 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 1:59am


NB1376

not as $$ as you might think.. I retro fitted a C-Lion canoe with auto paint ( Ford - blue ) and some hand painted flames after one came out a little translucent ( yellow)

didn;t add a lot of weight and sparkled in the sun! see it at www.outrigger.ca

Roscoe


#24 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 7:45am


I don't think anyone has a problem with canoes made in china or anywhere else for that matter...I think it's about who stands behind his product and is willing to make amends if it's something happens to ones equipment. There are other factors as ppl has mentioned why one would buy a canoe locally or overseas. My reasons to buy one locally would be that I get to speak to the person building it and make adjustments (not going to say like what cause it's a secret..heheh) also if something does go wrong I can go directly to that person who built it. Though I have not had really anything major happen to any of my boats that I bought in Hawaii (karel (borrowed arrow,Thunder kevlar/graphite, viper graphite/foam core), Steve (polaris graphite/ultralight and vantage graphite/ultralight), and John Kaimana graphite ultralight). And they steve and john wanted to know how it worked after I got to ride it. These boats as far as I know are still alive and kicking and performing well. I would also like to add that I had one of the first batches of hurricanes that came out say like maybe late 2000 or early 2001 that was made overseas. The only problem was that the sleeve that housed the rudder rod swelled and I had a hard time turning and I had to drill it out slightly and it worked fine oh and Mike helped me out with that repair. My hurricane was awesome and is still kicking and I'm pretty sure that if the girl that has it wanted to sell it it would be scooped up in no time as with most of my other boats well maybe not as fast would be the thunder and viper though I know the thunder is still sea worthy and I would still do a Kalapaki run in raging conditions as it has done that run in 35+mph winds. I would also like to add that I have never heard of tigers boats breaking apart during a run. seems like ppl who have had major malfunctions with boats during runs get themselves in trouble by catching a huge breaking type of a wave or had a repair done and it failed (though my thunder used to and probably still if not careful would pull out of the ama to iako connnection because of the type of connection karel used. Squeeze type sleeve never did happen on the big days as I made sure things were tight and taped.) Oh and the person I paddled with had tigers ono as well as kolea none of which ever had problems.
If I were to buy a canoe from overseas I would definately do my homework as to who really backs up their product if it would fail from craftmanship. I have seen and heard horror stories of boats breaking apart out at sea that were brand spanking new and the hardship they are having trying to get it resolved not mentioning names but I'm sure ppl if they wanted to could find out this info for themselves. At least these ppl are here to try to get it resolved cause as we all know the ocean is a dangerous place. guess i should have stuck to the thread. how does hypr and non compare...hmmmm this question I think I will never be able to answer. well maybe if it was flat and in a river.and in a distance I can swim.hehehe just my opinion...call me a troll or go ahead and start the flames.....


#25 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 9:24am


Reading the comments about seams, production methods, etc -

I have a Hurricane that had some problems with the seam. In stead of doing spot fixes I decided to delicately grind out the seam, fill the void, and S-glass/epoxy resin the entire thing. After that I wet sanded the entire hull and had it sprayed with PPG Concept paint (auto paint). So basically, I now have a "seamless" hull.

I'm sure everyone is wondering how much weight the hull gained...3.75 pounds. Considering that I weigh nearly 190 and paddle in mostly smooth to small conditions, I couldn't care less about th weight.

Attached is a photo of the finished boat.

Raphael


#26 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 9:28am


Hey Raphael,
That's a good looking Hurricane and you did a great job ! Hats off to you for getting "hands on". Looks like you're in Florida ? Pls contact us, we love to direct people to guys who know how to fix canoes

We're both the same weight and yes, I couldn't care less about a few lbs extra. In fact, we built special DEMO canoes for anyone to "beat up", and they are QUADRUPLE carbon canoes, you can punch it as hard as you can, it will break your knuckles !

And yes, its about 10lbs over our production canoes. I paddle it everyday and use it for races. Its been abused, flew off from truck landing on the highway, blown off 10 ft racks, hit with paddles as hard as possible by some crazies etc. etc. for 2 years., and it is still solid. And NO, we can't afford to make such canoes for sale ! Keep Paddling !


#27 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 10:27am


Sorry missed the other posts.

We use AMERICAN Paint PPG and VALSPAR, sometimes Dupont. And Japanese paints and European paints like ICI is fantastic too.

We use Automotive paint because you can apply THINNER coats but MORE coats than you can with GEL Coats. If you work with Gel coats, you know it is MUCH THICKER in consistency. Most importantly UV resistance of the CLEAR coats used in auto/marine paints have tremendous durabilty. If you painted cars with Gel coats, and most people leave their cars parked at work in the sun ALL DAY, EVERY DAY what do you think will happen to that car in gel coat after ONE year ?

Gel coats is a labor saver - good for making in US. If you're used to shooting gel coats, you'll not like paints because you have to have lot more finesse in laying down multiple layers. Also there are a LOT MORE people and shops that can shoot auto / marine paints all over the world, thanks to the infrastructure created by a 100 years of auto industry.

Besides, custom metallic paints LOOK amazing, especially in the sun, it sparkles like a diamond. Once you go there, you can't go back. Most people that spend that kind of money on canoes want it to look AWESOME. You never see a Ferrari painted Flat Black unless its production mule for racing and testing do you ?

Aloha, hope that helped.


#28 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 10:41am


Ian,

Yes, I am in Florida. West Palm Beach to be exact. Not sure I want to get into the canoe repair business, but if I can advise someone please send them my way. Trust me, it was learn as you go for me. I've done my own repairs on surfboards since I was a little kid, but carbon and paint is different. Also, if you know of OC1 paddlers in my area let them know I'm lonely out there in the Gulf Stream!

Raphael


#29 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 1:47pm


Everyone-

I do own a HYPR boat, and I have never been happy with it.
Yes, it is stiff, and it looks like a car, with the paint job. But it is heavier, has problems.
So, for anyone who wants the opinion of someone who has owned a Hawaii made boat, and a HYPR boat. DON'T BUY A BOAT FROM HYPR.

I have tried to get my boat fixed by Ian, and his customer service is crap. He acts like he has the virtues that are tied with aloha, but he has none.

I am a mechanical engineer, and fully understand the manufacturing process, along with the materials used. I would say that the ideas that he has are good, but the workmanship and quality are not.

Yes the use of kevlar in marine practices is good, but if you are looking for lowest weight (which we all are) then graphite is the way to go. Ian is correct to say that kevlar is saving lives in Iraq, but that doesn't mean that you should make a canoe out of it.

Currently, I feel that some canoe builders "china" boats, are ok, if you are willing to sacrifice a few pounds for a quick turnaround. HYPR could be an option, but many changes need to be made, starting with good business practices.

I apologize for the mud slinging, but I don't wish someone else to pay $3000 for a boat that should be sold for $2000.


#30 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 2:24pm


and yes,

Ian Foo=Haole1


#31 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 2:27pm


Jim maybe you should buy one and let us know.....sounds like your just trolling.


#32 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 2:46pm


http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Aug/01/br/br7143896052.html

interesting article about lead paint used in china for children's toys...looks nice but toxic as hell....


#33 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 3:00pm


Thanks for answering my question Ian.

I have another question for people who own boats sprayed with automotive paints...

Has anyone here ever taken there boat to an auto shop to have it sprayed?

Seems kinda inconvenient. Plus your paying twice as much for the repair because you have to pay someone who knows how to fix boats to fix the damage. Then you have to pay another person to spray it.

Just wondering...


#34 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 4:09pm


FYI, PPG and other reputable U.S. automotive paint manufacturers have eliminated the lead component from their paints.

Ian, what's your take on how well clear coats have held up to the constant exposure to H20? Any problems with fading or delamination from the underlying substrate?

Also, if anybody knows what the weight difference is between gelcoat and automotive paint, I'd like to hear it. I know when it comes to two stage automotive paints, assuming you eliminate the use of a sealer, the primer is followed by several coats of base and then several coats of clear. In some cases, you can lay down 8 coats before its all said and done. It seems like an aweful lot of pigment is being laid down which could result in a notable difference in weight between gel and paint.


#35 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 4:29pm


I would guess that having the option to have an Auto Body shop spray your boat is a good thing. However, I bet they would charge alot and that they wouldn't be real excited about doing it. Auto Body repair is a low margin high volume business and dinking around with a canoe wouldn't fit in with their business plan. I do know of one reputable boat repair person on Oahu who uses automotive paint frequently. Also, I've always thought that Hurricanes use paint not gelcoat. Have I been wrong all these years (3)? If Hurricanes do use paint, I guess that using paint doesn't have to make a boat heavier.


#36 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 5:05pm


Has anybody else noticed that the hottest forum topics of the past year have all had to do with boats made in China? I would have to say since this is such a hot topic, and people are so passionate about it, that there must be some truth to what people are saying. It seems that I have heard way more horror stories about Hypr then I have heard stories about their great customer service. That is just my 2-cents about this topic.


#37 Wed, 08/01/2007 - 5:03pm


Interesting ...

"BTW, Karel took the lead from us and his canoes are made in China"

so you are saying that you were the first to make canoes in China - this is despite the fact that the first factory where your Hyper canoes were made used to be the Hurricane factory. And I know for a fact that Karel was making canoes in China a LONG time before you started ....

better make sure your facts are straight before you start telling people stories - or at least tell your stories to a much less educated audience.


#38 Thu, 08/02/2007 - 5:02am


iPaddle,
Besides weight, can you be more specific about the problems you have had with your boat?


#39 Thu, 08/02/2007 - 6:13am


Ian you misread what I said. I said "NOT fabbing carbon copies", meaning these builders like Johnny and Tiger build their own original designs.

As for buying boats made in China, I think most people are practical as am I. I have a Kaimana built by Johnny which I have had for three years and it has been a solid ride and a great boat in so many conditions for me in the NorthEast of North America. I am not adverse to buying China made products which is literally impossible to do.

I also own a new China made Fuze which I got this spring which I am much less enthusiastic about then my Kaimana and other boats I have paddled locally. So the Fuze will get replaced with a China made Hurricane (high availability here and a fast ride) and I will order a new Kainalu from Johnny directly since that will take more time.

As I said before it's about choices and options.


#40 Thu, 08/02/2007 - 6:15am


nb1376,

Although the equipment used to spray gel coat is actually different from the equipment used to spray automative paint, they are similarly applied and require the use of similar equipment (i.e., pneumatic spray gun, etc.). People who know how to spray gelcoat should be capable of spraying automotive paints and will, most likely, have the equipment to apply both. That is to say that if someone has the equipment to do gelcoat repairs, he/she will most likely have equipment and capability to spray automotive paints on boats. Thus, it is highly unlikely that you will need to take your boat to two individuals to have the repairs done and then painted.

Gregg,

I think the Hurricanes have always used automotive paint, not gelcoat. Here's a little excerpt from one of the do-it-yourselfers link from this website which describes the Hurricane:

The Hurricane, a very popular canoe by Maui Fiberglass, does not use gel-coat. Hurricanes are painted with a linear polyurethane paint, which I think is an excellent idea, but from a manufacturer’s viewpoint, adds many new production problems, including cost and time.

See, http://www.ocpaddler.com/node/21

Actually I had forgotten all about that link. The link covers the topic of gelcoat pretty well. Having painted my own car, I do know that the application of a two-stage automative paint (at least to a car) is extremely labor intensive. Aside from the countless number of hours spent prepping the car, the car must be absolutely free from contaminents such as oil, silicone, etc., which will cause problems with adhesion. A sealers may be required if the boat has been painted before to prevent the underlying paint from bleeding through. Then comes the several layers of base coat, followed by several layers of clear. The paint has a "flash" time so the painter must wait a period of time between each coat before applying the next. Once the clear has dried sufficiently, the clear is then sanded using several different grits of sandpaper. Cutting pastes and micro polishing compounds are then applied using a buffer to bring out the shine. Doing all of this while keeping the area absolutely clean and free from dust is a real PITA unless you're set up for it.

BTW, just as a reminder to all. I highly recommend to everyone that they copy their messages before hitting the "post comment" button in case something goes wrong and you lose the message. This is the second time I'm typing this post because something went wrong with my first post.


#41 Thu, 08/02/2007 - 8:23am


Bluesea-

I have had problems with numerous parts of the boat.
1. the seat it came with was a adjustable, with a small seat on a track. the track wouldn't stay in one position so whenever you applied power the seat would slide to the back.
2. the rigging options are horrible, I have only found one way to get the boat to sit up straight, otherwise it leans horribly left, killing your left side.
3. the footwell doesn't drain
4. everything on the boat is plastic, which when subjected to UV light, becomes brittle, and breaks. (some of this HYPR has redesigned)
5. the paint is fading and small bubbles have started to appear. (yes the same paint Ian is so fond of, is fading and bubbling).

But i will say, the hull is very stiff, and strong, with numerous people stating it is the stiffest they have felt. It has been pushed hard and the boat is sturdy in big ocean. But still the problems, and poor customer service has heavily outwieghed the pros, to make me an unhappy customer.


#42 Thu, 08/02/2007 - 8:43am


I think iPaddle is Eaton, who has one of the first canoes we made at the old Hurricane factory in China. This is almost 2 years AFTER purchasing. As to customer service issue is ABSOLUTELY untrue. Our rep Jon Paoa has spoken to him many times and he tells me the problems with the paint on his canoe was due to really poor care and neglect. FADING because its left in the sun, full of dents and dings for carelessness..

The paint is a single stage paint, NOT the current American Paints we are using now. It was specified by the SUB-contractor that also did Hurricane's canoe then, same brand of Chinese paint. I didn't like it like many things at that factory ( so we left !!) However, there were very few issues with that paint in terms of durability as I have the exact same color Polaris that iPaddle has, and mine is almost 3 years old now as part of our DEMO stable. Still a brilliant red, with lots of dings from so many users.

Despite all that, we PAID Clay Carson in Honolulu to REPAINT his entire canoe. I mean this is after 2 years !! No one warranties canoe more than 6 months, not when it is "user error". And Clay does fabulous work for us and everyone in Honolulu. For those who know Clay, he'll tell you straight how iPaddle's canoe really was.

Despite doing all this iPaddle demands a NEW CANOE from us because he likes the NEW generation look a lot better !!! So all the issues he's brought up is completely exaggerated to suit his demand for a new canoe. Why don't you take a car you've driven for 2 years and go to the dealer and ask for a new car just because.... !! My Rep is a very fair man, if he felt it was really unreasonable, I trust his judgement.

We pride ourselves in supreme customer service and INSTANT response ! Besides iPaddle could have just contacted me directly other than just leaving me a voicemail. The problem with this forum FEW people have the balls to use their REAL name, so if iPaddle is not Eaton, I apologize. In that case WHY haven't you contacted me ? I respond immediately ianfoo@hypr.us

What is obvious is that there is a constant, a constant criticism of us from the same group of guys, all hiding behind assumed names. Yet I'm accused of being LOL "Haole 1" or even worse, its supposed to be my wife etc.etc.

Yeah Braddahs, I have NOTHING to hide, bring it on !!


#43 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 9:37am


As for HKPaddler, that would be Karel's rep in Hk. The coach for HKIPC and husband of Michell Mo of Typhoon paddles. Bradah, little knowledge is dangerous. What you said is ABSOLUTELY not true. It was Mike Giblin that took production of his canoes from Malaysia to China. From Hawaii and with respect to canoes only, yes he is the first to have ventured into China. Have nothing but great respect for Mr. Giblin.

My previous automotive experiences of over 15 years gave me a wide network of resources to use for composite production all over Asia. I approached Karel about China production since we started with other builders in Hawaii, Blyth, Tiger and Puake. He absolutely refused to do anything in " a communist country" since he escaped from a communist country. But he was willing to consider it as part of the sale of Outrigger Connection but he wanted to see everything we were doing. We shared everything with him and I have a SIGNED NDA ( Non Disclosure Agreement ) from Karel that specifically states that he would NOT duplicate or use ANY information conveyed to him by our business plans, contacts and verbal discussions. I spent a couple months explaining to him why it would be the best thing for OC to have centralized production with a central distribution hub out of Southern China.

Guess what ? Not only did Karel send a Stingray mold to the same factory we did, he basically "followed" our entire logistics set up for production. He had Kalani Irvine back him up and took him for a whole tour of Southern China working with the same network of subcontractors to produce his canoes. Yeah, we could sue him for breaching the NDA etc. etc. but that really only benefits the lawyers. Karel has never apologized, in fact called me and SCREAMED at the top of his voice for about 20 mins because I mentioned to a mutual friend what he did. I hung up on him and have not spoken to him since.

The success of OC program is a validation of what I've been pushing forth all along. It does prove that I was right in the first place. And even Mr. Giblin finally woke up that he has to make more than one hull, so he snatched up Kai and Huki as he knew we were talking to both of them as well. He had to build his portfolio to maximize his infrastructure resources. Bottomline is NO ONE has to wait for canoe anymore or just buy a Hurricane because that's the only one avaiable.

And yes, there is an URBAN LEGEND that is circulated by Hurricane advocates that I somehow stopped Hurricane's production in China because I'm that powerful !!! Insane and completely untrue. I spoke to both Foti brothers and put them in touch with the original factory owner in China. They both know the truth now. In hindsight, leaving that factory was the best thing for Hurricane and for us too. And I know Giblin agrees with me on this.

Yes, I SPEAK MY MIND and I get a lot of heat for it, but those that do NOT know what's going on but rattle on like they do, that is the sad part of this wonderful sport. Most of the crap you hear is completely not true but those with an axe to grind.

Go paddle and have a good time. Stop Bashing when you have NO cause to. Enjoy life. Aloha


#44 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 10:14am


First...I'm so over this thread.

Secondly, those are harsh words considering you're not confident you have the right guy.

And lastly, if I remember correctly, wasn't Ian Foo the one posting anonymously under "Witness Protection" during his last tirade? My "hypcoracy" meter is pinging.


#45 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 10:18am


I think Ian cops a fair bit of flak every time he provides info on these forums. I'm not trying to defend him, he seems more than capable of doing that himself, but at least he is out there, trying to get good quality canoes out into the world.
I think some of the Hawaiians here don't know how lucky they are. First off, shipping costs around the Hawaiian islands are minimal, but try getting a canoe from Hawaii to anywhere else in the world... doesn't happen brah. Which doesn't leave the rest of us much options - and a big reason why many builders have gone to China (aside from cheap(er) labour and less restrictions on safety - but that is another debate entirely).
Shipping links out of Asia are way easier and much more direct, and they are able to keep up with demand.
Because in Hawaii they build less canoes, they are more able to spend additional time on each canoe, which is why I think that generally speaking the canoes I have paddled in Hawaii just seem better - the quality and time spent on each canoe is evident.
Lastly warranty??? Mate, forget about it. I don't want to even think about how many times we have received canoes here that were damaged in shipping, or had problems with seams etc etc - we just have to live with it. It would be far too costly to try and arrange for any canoes to be shipped back to the factory for repairs - just laughable really. A least we have learnt to be good at doing minor repairs ourselves.
So there you have it - Hawaiian paddlers should consider themselves lucky, and leave it at that - now go paddle and enjoy your canoes fellas..


#46 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 10:22am


Hey e02060

When I posted as Witness Protection, I was attacked in the ocean and it was to do with a POLICE matter under investigation. I was advised by legal contacts to do so a PROTECTIVE measure against retaliation. Again, little knowledge is dangerous, and I really don't have the time to set you straight.

So er... WHY are YOU hiding under an assumed name and taking potshots ? Yeah, we're all over this kind of meadering off tangent subjects. Grow some, come out of the closet already !! We don't discriminate, c'mon !

If you can't take it, don't throw it !!


#47 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 10:34am


ipaddlie

If your comments are directed to the service of your canoe.Let me remind you that your Rep was Manny whoom you claim wasnt availble to assist you. Ian contacted me to look into the problem with your canoe. However, every time you called you wanted me to drop what i was doing and run over to the other side of the island just to look at your canoe. After finally convincing you to bring the canoe to clay carson so that as a repair shop we can get a complete picuture of the repairs needed. You plainly stated you wanted a new canoe and that Manny said if you are not statified you could get a new canoe. When i look over the canoe and talked with clay all i could find wrong was the paint neede to be fixed. As we know after a couple of years paint failure can happen. For, Chevrolet and Chryslers has had many years of paint problems and these companies have been arounds for decades. As to the other issues regarding your canoe you wanted Hyper to fix all scrape and bruises in which we did. But your objective or motive was to get a new canoe from hyper which puzzles me. If you dont like their canoes why ask for a new one? Eaton if this is you i want you to know we harbor no ill will towards you or those you talk to. im sure when think about the situation you will see Hyper had your interest in mind. It was made clear to me as a Rep for Hyper to fix and correct any problems the canoe might have. The problem did not warrant a new canoe. The next time you go to a car dealer and after you buy a new car, see if they will replace your automoble with a new after two years? Eaton for record i dealt with several problems for Hyper and I can say ALL have been resolve favorbly for both parties. You are the only one that seems th o be unhappy. Hyper cannot please everyone but we do try. Even fixing problems that are no ours.
I am sorry for your misfortuned with Manny. He is a great paddler and im sure if he had the time would have help you with your concerns and problems. If you have any problems please contact me or Ian as he doesnt let any problems go unoticed.I wish you well Eaton and success in your paddling. You paddle for Healani CC, great bunch of guys. hope we could assist you some day in the future. Enjoy your paddling


#48 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 10:47am


Coc0nuts is absolutely right, a thinking man that has a view of the WHOLE picture. I have never ever not supported the cause to buy LOCALLY made canoes. This is not a zero sum game, MORE paddlers = better for local builders. If you guys own your own businesses in Hawaii, you know the tremendous shortage of SKILLED labor we have in Hawaii. Hard to retain good guys. Even if you could afford it, you couldn't find help.

We are very lucky in Hawaii to have so many choices and many with knowledge to fix canoes. In places like California where the availability of hispanic workforce to do "autobody" related jobs for fixing canoes is ABUNDANT, that will be your only option.But of course you guys are arguing about exceptions, and I am referring to "things in general".

And yes, CLEAR coats protect the PAINT. If you scratch it not too deeply you can polish out the scratch without taking off paint. Of course if you run your canoe on the rocks ( and Big Island is one gigantic rock ) like we do here, then no paint or gel coat is good enough for that !!


#49 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 10:50am


FYI, PPG and other reputable U.S. automotive paint manufacturers have eliminated the lead component from their paints. Snarf....You are right about that....I bet Mattel didn't want Lead Paint to be used in the painting of the millions of toys that were shipped out of China between May 2007 and Aug 2007 and why was it during only those months?...hmmm maybe they ran out of the paints that they were suppose to use and sprayed something that they shouldn't when no control..... same with the Dog Food, Toothpaste, Humane Food (Last month, Zheng Xiaoyu, the former head of China's food and drug safety watchdog, was executed for corruption.), Toys,...should I mention Canoes...just some examples...IMHO if I feed my dog some food or brush my teeth or have a meal or when my children play with there toys that just because they were made in China that there might be a chance that something deadly might happen. Who Cares how stiff ones boat is if say the iakos rip off when you're a mile out at sea and the ocean is raging...who cares how cheap my dog food was when my dog is dead or how pretty my childrens toys are when they possibly could get lead poisonning.....again I say at least RESPONSIBLE companies when caught in that predicament RECALL their products. Though those things should not happen in the First Place!!!!......maybe this is not all apples to apples but....doesn't it look like there is a pattern here?
Us Hawaiian (should be more like Hawaii paddlers...since Hawaiian is a Race and they are more then just Hawaiians Paddling in Hawaii) Paddlers should be Lucky?....Really I don't want to rely on luck that my boat holds up when I go out!!!


#50 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 11:04am


Hey Islandstyle,

Are you referring your post to me or someone else?


#51 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 2:38pm


I'd just like to say that any sh*t-f&%k on here who goes around PUTTING THEIR CUSTOMERS NAME ON THE INTERNET for the whole world to see, doesn't deserve ANYONE'S business. I don't care if your canoes are made on the moon, out of double-premium-carbon, and painted with 24K gold. That's the poorest example of "good business" I've ever seen from ANY canoe builder. After you and your rep's posts Ian, I wouldn't paddle a HYPR boat if you paid me to.

Love, ALAN GOTO

...let the excuses and general douche-baggery commence:


#52 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 4:00pm


Coconut...howzit......yes if you are referring to ppl living in Hawaii without the Koko (blood) as Hawaiians......that's the way it read to me....and I do take offense to that if thats what you meant....

oh and on another note....companies seem to go to China because it saves them money which in turn makes them money...which is good because it's a win-win...the problem imho is when companies are not willing to deal with the fact that China doesn't have as strict regulations with their exports and it should be the companies Responsibility to make sure that their product is safe and is what the consumer is paying for. I don't think Mattel knowingly let the chinese spray lead paint on the toys..it's how they handle it now and what will they do so that it won't happen again....you can make the same conclusions with the canoes from china...if these things happen to companies who have quality control centers in country can you imagine the ones that don't? I'm not trying to hate on canoes coming from China but if you're gonna venture into a Country that has less regulation so that more ppl have an easier access to the product or that you can make a profit then they need to take Responsibility if something goes WRONG!!!

as Paddlers should be responsible when they go out....make sure equipment is in working order as well as their bodies...(When in doubt don't go out) manufacturers should be responsible for the products they put out...it's only going to take one instance where someone drowns that going to put restrictions on how we paddle or what we paddle.....

Look mattel will pay a price because something like this has happen as I'm sure Ian has..(and to give him the benefit of the doubt maybe some ppl are taking advantage of the situation but is everyone doing that?)...it's how they handle the damage control and what they can do to build the trust so ppl will take a chance to try to product....Dora Doll = $20...Canoe= $3000 what's in your Wallet....

http://www.moneyweb.co.za/mw/view/mw/en/page94?oid=151587&sn=Detail


#53 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 3:22pm


Wow! I didnt know I was gonna light the fire like that(this time, anyway). I was really just wondering about the boats. They look awesome, I just didn't know anyone who actually had paddled one. Ian, Mahalo for the boat related info. We're looking forward to seeing them up here in the Pacific Northwest. Jim


#54 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 3:59pm


I don't have goto's scrupples. I'd be happy to paddle your boats and get paid.

I plan on winning molo' this year*, and all my other races for that matter**, so it could be good publicity.

*by win, I mean maybe participate
**maybe


#55 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 5:38pm


Jim,
Weren't you also responsible for the previous round of emotional outbursts and character meltdowns on this forum...the Danny Ching thing? What's WRONG with you?


#56 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 6:40pm


Was that the only other time? I apologize to all who have been made futless by my forum topics. Talk amongst yourselves...I'm getting verklempt.


#57 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 7:42pm


Anyone wants to demo a Hyper canoe? next Sunday Aug 12, 2007 at 9AM Hawaii Kai. We will be doing a waikiki run. If you feel up to it you are welcome to come and demo our canoes. just let me know who and how many?


#58 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 8:32pm


"Yes, I SPEAK MY MIND and I get a lot of heat for it, but those that do NOT know what’s going on but rattle on like they do, that is the sad part of this wonderful sport. Most of the crap you hear is completely not true but those with an axe to grind".

Ian,
Good advice maybe you should follow it. As we discussed in private the last time you made untrue statements on this blog. The crap you are saying is completely not true and you have an axe to grind. If you have a problem you know how to get in touch with me.

Kalani Irvine
"Thunder"


#59 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 9:29pm


aww c'mon Jim....pls be a little more original... ..it should have probably read "I'm getting verklempt.....talk amongst yourselves...I'll give you a topic........how's about...hehe....nah maybe....6 out of 10.for originality...so is Jim=Linda?


#60 Fri, 08/03/2007 - 9:53pm


bought a hyper paddled it hit a rock the rudder completely fell off the rudder mount hull broke i didn't see any kevlar. so who cares if a hull is stiff if the f**ka has no resin absorbed in it. i bought a hyper in the assumption that it was one of jonny's boats little did i know about the business practice. Yes i am friends with Jonny & know a good boat when i see one I , like a lot of cali folks spent $ when others told me not to. I trusted Ian & what he stood for promoting the sport. But how can you support the sport sacrificing safety? I love the sport of outrigger canoeing & love those who get the same enjoyment out of it that i do. Sacrificing safety for weight is a bad idea if you don't know what you r doing. Excuse the language but i am speaking from a man of pissed off eddd nes.. if you ask me ( me only not the other posts) I say buy a hawaiian boat or a hawaiian boat with great quality control, because it's you'r ass on the water when the shit hits the fan.(trust me ). WHAT IS YOUR LIFE WORTH?????????? ALOHAAAAA!!!!!!!


#61 Sat, 08/04/2007 - 12:29am


Jim
I have a Polaris built by Kai carbon canoe.
Great quality, however after three years of wear in water use paints slightly faded. Canoe is in exellent shape. I also have a 2-man waveblade that two years old from Hyper. Canoe is in great shape aside from wear from water use. I have taken my 2-man waveblade kailua around hawaii kai daimond head, keehe lagoon Canoe has never come apart or giving me any problems. Used our Demo 2-man waveman cross the chanel no problems at all. This past year it seems that 90% of 2-man canoes were waveblade alot from china. I also have a 2-man Honu that is four years old again just wear from water use. my Honu yokos has broke in the ocean several times however, that is just wear from usage. If one checks their equipment before going in the ocean to make sure of their safety it would solve must of their problems.


#62 Sat, 08/04/2007 - 2:04am


Well, all that and not one real positive review of Hypr from an independent source. Ask about Fuse or Hurricane and people are fallin' all over each other to talk up their boat of choice. Still, I'm sure Ian and co. are working hard to improve their product, and like some of the other China boats they'll improve with time. If the C-lion gang up in Vancouver will stand by Hypr, that's good enough for me. A friendly word of advice for team Hypr, and I hope they don't take it the wrong way, maybe you'd sell more boats if you tried being a little nicer. I've known Thunder for a long time, it takes a lot to piss him off.


#63 Sat, 08/04/2007 - 6:59am


downswell,
Was your model advertised as having a kevlar layup? Are you saying that yours is a case of false advertisement or fraud? Please be more specific for those of us who are interested in the truth about the products from this controversial company.


#64 Sat, 08/04/2007 - 9:06am


If the C-lion gang up in Vancouver will stand by Hypr, that’s good enough for me.

I just plain don't like the C-lion at all, slow in the bumps, slow in the flat, I can haul a much heavier club boat much faster over the water than those C-lions.

Hurricanes
would be terrific if they weren't so delicate.

On the topic of Hypr, I haven't had the pleasure of testing one yet, but certainly won't bother now. I am correct in stating that the Hypr is a knock-off of another design?

And basing material and paint options based on bulletproof vests and cars is tragically hilarious. (i'm sorry, is there anyone out there that takes their car for a swim in the saltwater ocean day after day?)

I think it's plain to see you have a guy with the gumption to start up a business (admirable), with little knowledge and business acumen, I'd say you get what you pay for but apparently that isn't the case.


#65 Sat, 08/04/2007 - 11:11am


Just happy to paddle, please reread your last post. I think there was a few type-o's. Ian I don't make boats, I just paddle them, I know very little about the full process of building the boat, but it seems that the guys making your boats over in China need some lessons as well. The only boat I got to try was the Hypr Vantage, and the boat ran ok, besides the fact that the seat was meant for a six-year-old girl and the steering was that of a 18 wheeler in a Walmart parking lot on a crowded day. The boat ran ok.
Ian theres a time and place for you to start speaking up for your product and the a time to go yeah sorry we're working on it.

Inches to Feet to Miles ahead.


#66 Sun, 08/05/2007 - 2:49pm


Aloha Guys,
Downswell would be Josh Banfield and what he said is correct about the first generation canoes he got. Bottomline is he RAN AGROUND on a giant rock and ripped the rudder through the back of the canoe. I asked for pictures many times, but never got it. What we did do was we IMMEDIATELY "fired" our production partner at the factory for the QC issue and it was an EXTREMELY difficult thing to do. BTW: - Josh got ALL HIS MONEY back !

I respect Josh very much and when I finally got to talk to him and asked him to call me for anthing at all, just like I tell EVERYONE who deals with us. I also apologized to Johnny Puakea profusely. Those canoes were sent to CA for DEMOS. What Josh fails to mention in this entire discussion is that he got a FULL REFUND from my partner.

The canoe did NOT fall apart in the ocean, he CRASHED it onto a rock, what do you expect ? None of us were there to see HOW it was done. Regardless when the news of that came to me through a FOURTH party, I scrambled to get Josh's number to call him and see what we could do. Of course this fact was left out in the posting !

This is typical of the partial truths that is disseminated here.

Those canoes were meant for CLUB use. A couple are still at SFOCC as training mules. The rest which have not been paid for has been "hijacked" by our rep who remains MIA. We have NO CURRENT PRODUCTION canoes in CA. If you see one for sale, that is NOT authorized directly by us, DO NOT BUY it. Please call us directly. Such is the so called integrity we have to deal with some in the paddling community. 99% great, 1 % bad and it makes it very depressing. And yes despite all the hurdles thrown at us as newcomers , we plug along knowing that we're doing something fantastic, and life will ALWAYS have its detractors and naysayers.

Our new reps in CA are Phil Herve and Keith Brandt. They wil be receiving their ACTUAL production samples in a couple weeks, just like our C-Lion folks, Ross and Mel up in Vancouver, just fantastic people.

As for Josh's canoe, I had no input in selling him that canoe at all, wasn't meant to be used for that. My CA partner's ex-wife ( just happened to announce their divorce the week the demo canoes landed ) did so without telling me. She knows Josh insisted on selling the canoe to Josh, then when family issues overtook the entire situation, she had to drop EVERYTHING and just handed off the entire batch of canoes to our rep. That left us with gigantic gap in CA.

After my partner's marriage dissolved, I never spoke to her again. We didn't even have the right ama to match Josh's canoe.

I had to talk to 5 people to get Josh's tel number, and I did tallk to Josh and reminded him to call me or ANYTHING at all as we have NO infrastructure in CA to support the canoes.

The end result of the CA fiasco was that we ENDED our relationship with the production partner who had NOT followed our lamination formula for production canoes. When we see a problem we deal with it RIGHT AWAY.

Again, when problems are NOT brought DIRECTLY to our attention we cannot fix it ! We place a lot of trust with people we work with, and usually it entails us putting out a lot of money to support the distribution, most of it on TRUST. There ain't no credit checks in this sport is there ?

"The Journey of a 1000 miles begins with the first step" - we're still going and that's all that matters

ALoha, and Josh, my offer still stands, would GLADLY make it up to you with the right canoe. You cannot say I did not repeatedly reach out to you, can you ? You can call me if you're unhappy 808-960-4667, I think you're a great paddler from what everyone tells me and I hope you're a straight up guy too. Take care.

Ian


#67 Mon, 08/06/2007 - 9:44am


It is absolutely numbing to read Ian's long winded and perpetual defense of his canoes and business practices. I for one can't even stand to read through all this b.s. every 3-4 months. As a long standing business owner I know that if there's this much smoke there must be a fire somewhere. ENOUGH ALREADY!


#68 Mon, 08/06/2007 - 9:57am


And a special note to Odie and Jim, as in almost ALL "bitching" forums, you never hear from people that were very happy with what we do.

Being nice goes BOTH ways. There are very few nice words here is there ? What would you do if every day you happen to log onto the forum is all the "annonymous' bashing that goes on ?

If both of you are really serious about the canoes, CALL US, email, talk to your reps etc.

And ODIE for the 2000th time, we do not "knock off" the designers canoes, they are built under license and updated. Do you understand what a licensing agreement is ? Did you not read the entire thread about the original builders in Hawaii not really building canoes in any significant numbers anymore in Hawaii ?

You know, before he moved to CA, Tiger ( so did Steve Blyth )warned me about NOT getting online to respond. No good comes from being open in forums. I thought that I could make a difference. My wife and partner in this adventure just bent my ear, " you cannot have an intellectual discussion on the forum because the guy ENOY beating up on each other by sparkoing verbal assaults, why bother getting online at all ?, No one is really interested in getting information, are they ?"

As usual, the wife is usually correct, Why bother ! I had not gotten online for months and was quite happy. If you have a problem with us, email me ( ianfoo@hypr.us ) or Lauren ( lauren@hypr.us ) directly.

If you want to spread lies, half truths and rumors, exaggerate, criticize etc. you've come to the right place. You're certainly takking time away from the sport we love, like I'm doing now.

Go Paddle!


#69 Mon, 08/06/2007 - 10:20am


I would like to thank Ian for his defensive words and half truths, The more he opens his mouth the more boats I sell. Nobody ever said that Hurricane was flawless in there first attmpt in Malaysia, even China for that matter, Neither was Karel, We are sure to see some of the early boats from each have a few problems. The difference is how they or their dealers treat the customer, I have never read negative comments of either builder on this forum, aside from the occasional dificulty of contacting them or delays in delivery.

I have said this before and will say it again, no matter what dealer or manufacturer you buy your canoe from, if and when you have a problem let them know immediately. I tell every person that buys a canoe from me that if they have ANY problems I want to know about it. I can't fix what I don't know about and neither can the friends they are telling. You as a buyer are paying good money for your canoe, and if it is not 100 percent right when you pick it up, don't take it home. I have seen for a long time paddlers accept faulty boats because they are afraid it will take 6 months to get a new boat.

Our sport is going through a lot of changes, I remember seeing my first oc-1,, it was a tiger on display at the queens race in Kona, I remember thinking how cool it would be to have one someday, Now I sell them and have been fortunate enough to watch the sport grow. And I can tell you we have not seen anything yet,

As consumers you are lucky builders have taken steps to improve availability. There is room for the guys that want to make them one at a time as well at the big guys that make several at a time.

Remember how many sports grow, climbing and whitewater kayaking for instance, when the participants wanted a better kayak or a better sleeping bag they made it themselves, many suceed and many don't. Patagonia was one that did.

We can only wait and see if Ian joins the likes of Karel, Mike, Tiger, John P and John M as great builders. From what I see in his posts and what I have heard, my best guess is he will not, However I do appreciate that he took a stab at it.


#70 Mon, 08/06/2007 - 10:47am


Please register or login to post a comment.

Page loaded in 0.311 seconds.