Looking to buy a canoe soon and was wondering if anyone has paddled in both of these canoes. pros/cons?
thanks
Submitted by ddaniels on Tue, 11/27/2007 - 5:09pm
Looking to buy a canoe soon and was wondering if anyone has paddled in both of these canoes. pros/cons?
thanks
Submitted by ddaniels on Tue, 11/27/2007 - 5:09pm
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And don't forget to turn on your chines before the race! Jr and Penny forgot to turn on the chines last year at Catalina. Danny and Sinkus mysteriously pushed their non-chined Kaimana through it's obvious chine-free defectiveness to win.
#71 Sun, 01/06/2008 - 2:09pm
DD
what is your size ? where do you paddle ? what is your skill level?And how much paddling Time do you get? are you shareing the canoe with anyone?
#72 Sun, 01/06/2008 - 4:28pm
ddaniels,
After your homework is finished and you
ve chosen the canoe that you want to buy . If its not asking too much, post your choice here and explain why you made the choice.Malama pono,
Fuze
#73 Mon, 01/07/2008 - 1:44am
But remember, the drawback with chines is getting enough plutonium to produce the 1.21 jigawatts of power necessary for time travel. It's all in the flux capacitor.
#74 Mon, 01/07/2008 - 4:44am
I am paddling on the east coast I wanted to dispel a few myths posted on this topic:
1) “Chine equipped boats won more major races than any other type of canoe on the east coast last season and that was just our first season on the racing circuit†– this is simply not true. I have participated in most of the races and checked the results of the ones that I did not and all (with exception of one or two) are won by boats other than “chine equipped boats†ïŠ
2) Since there were so many references made to the Blackburn Challenge race being dominated by “chine equipped boats†all I need to do is to post top 5 finishes:
Year Place Place Overall Boat No. Time Crew Boat Description
2007 1 19 226 2:47:10 Karel Tresnak Jr. Fusion
2007 2 29 228 2:53:33 Derek Schrotter Pegasus
2007 3 31 212 2:55:13 Travis Grant Hurricane
2007 4 33 207 2:55:59 Larry Cain Hurricane
2007 5 36 210 2:58:21 Andrey Drachenko Hurricane
3) “If I were 61" and 190 lbs. Id ride a Zephyr , no question about it . Especially if you have long legs†- I am 6’2†/ 195 lb and have been paddling Hurricane for the past few years. I don’t think paddler’s size has anything to do with the type of the boat you can paddle (of cause there are borders to every rule, e.g. if I was 220lb, or paddle in HI I would get a bigger volume boat) fast enough to win a race.
So, try before you buy. Consider at least 2-3 boats. If possible do a time trials and get fastest canoe you feel comfortable in.
#75 Mon, 01/07/2008 - 6:28am
.
#76 Sun, 01/13/2008 - 5:08am
Is that rowboat equipped with chines ? If so i'm selling my canoe and getting that rowboat..
#77 Mon, 01/07/2008 - 10:07am
Fuze Rider
In the spirit of “I like a spirited dialog and accurate exchange of ideasâ€
You have dropped a lot of opinions over the last couple of days. I have a few.
1) I suggest that you read all of your posts and ask yourself if you are a being a good rep. for OC or are you making wild, possibly arrogant, and sometimes offensive comments ?
-You said-“Karel Tresnak is the worlds most copied designer of OC1 canoes. All new boats from a variety of builders are now showing features that he pioneered. Soon, no doubt , chines will appear on the competitions boats.†He has certainly been innovative. But to read your posts it would seem that he has developed 90% of the everything in Outrigger Paddling.(OC-1) I give him about 20% of the credit and give a lot of credit to (in no particular rank order) the original Tahitian designers, Walter Guild, Tom Connor, Steve Blyth, John Martin, Tiger Taylor, Johnny Puakea, Kai Bartlet, Giblin Brothers. And others. In fact these designers would probably be very humble and say it was friends and fellow paddlers who helped them in the process. I can name many design ideas that Karel took from others. In fact I am guessing Karel probably wouldn’t agree with everything you are posting.
2) With the number of pictures and obvious advertising you are doing for your canoes, please buy advertising space too
3) Being a representative for a company and also posting so much creates problems. , especially when you post pictures of and comments about other paddlers and name names Like the following-
Kai wont win because his canoe isnt really a canoe ,it is a chineless wonder doing its submarine impersonation.
When this pic was taken Jr. was gliding along 7 minutes ahead.
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Because no matter how funny, witty, or supportive you want to be, it will be taken wrong by some or maybe many readers of this forum and could reflect badly on Outrigger Connection.
However disregard everything I have said and do whatever you want. It is just a forum -right. And I am just expressing my opinions not facts.
#78 Mon, 01/07/2008 - 10:46am
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#79 Sun, 01/13/2008 - 4:57am
Yeah Danny did pretty well looking at the competition in that race. I think its the inference to chines being the killer technology here (which needs some practical validation and research to back the claims) which people are debating.
Last I checked chines were not found on sprint canoes or kayaks anymore nor on the current crop of surfskis. If they were, wouldn't everyone be designing with them? Karel Sr. used to be a kayaker in his original paddling days in Europe from what I understand and chines are nothing new to kayaks, however they are no longer a design feature in world class sprint kayaks. If the advantage of chines on an OC can be scientifically proven at release speeds of 9 miles per hour + (which we seldom ever get to in the North East) then I'll be convinced and put my money down. For now my okole is my best sensory device for what makes me fast! :-)
Inferring from a race due to racer placings that any design is faster or better than another is not proof. Lets infer as a result of the recent race at the Holiday Burn off where Danny won, only one boat in the top 20 is chined (Karel's). So by this placing should we infer that chined boats suck? No and neither should we infer the opposite when race results are the opposite. Look at the paddlers in the Holiday burn off race, the cream of the crop is in there. A much deeper field of paddlers than at BlackBurn for sure.
#80 Mon, 01/07/2008 - 1:50pm
I am not sure that the boat designers/builders claim that their boat is better than the ones made by the competition.
They want to make the best boat possible, all of them.
If any of them gets the feeling that they are falling behind, they will try to improve their product. Good for us.
I am sure that they are proud of their products and satisfied when the paddlers love their boat. The boat builders are part of the active paddling community. Without them we simply wouldn't have the boats.
With respect to a chine - I would rather like to know what effect a chine has on performance; then I can decide if I want that feature or else.
http://www.sit-on-topkayaking.com/Articles/Instruction/HullDesign.htm
not quite enough info here.
#81 Mon, 01/07/2008 - 3:40pm
Another thing to consider is that Karel's boats are designed with alot of feedback from Jr., and Jr. is quite different from most paddlers and from most of the other top paddlers, physically and technique-wise. He's taller and has longer arms than most of the other guys, and he generates alot of his power near the release of his stroke-not all up front like someone with perfect technique like Danny Ching or some others.
#82 Mon, 01/07/2008 - 5:26pm
A big problem that happens on this forum is that whenever we debate an issue weather it's the chines on the canoe, the size of a paddle, or the best boat ever, The people that know the most about the subject aren't listening or don't want to deal with it.
Another problem we see and one of the reasons the builders / designers aren't present on these forums is they are too busy trying to supply the demand, For the builders that moved to China the long waits for boats are all but a thing of the past, As this takes hold and the builders have as many if not too many boats in all the markets they will need to help the Dealers sell their product. This will hopefully get them to promote the boats themselves, advertise in wider circulation magazines, an help educate the paddling community.
One example that I know Ropati is working on is an interview with Mike Giblin, Owner of Outrigger zone that designs the Hurricane (Mike designed the Hurricane with a guy named Matt, Not his brother.) My hope is this interview will help many of you understand the dynamic of how your boats are being built overseas, I don't want to spoil the interview but I think the information is going to blow you all away. One question i know of is "how many employees does O-zone have to run the China factory?" I want everyone to take a guess. We can discuss it later.
We can all debate weather or not chines make a boat faster, Nobody can win the debate until we get numbers. And in that debate the only real test would need to be with two identical boats one with Chines and One without. A test against a Chined boat and a non chined boat from another builder is testing boat design not chine advantage.
This is exactly why I did the 5lb test on my Fuze. before I debated the advantages of a heavy boat vs. a light boat I want numbers. Were the numbers enough to make a solid conclusion? No, not by a long shot, But it did make me wonder. and there may be a time that the heavier boat is an advantage. With more testing we may find out when, For now I am still a fan of the lighter canoe,
We see in major magazines testing of products, Our sport lacks that comprehensive testing. I am confident that in time we will see testing of rudders, paddles, and boats, Until that time happens the self proclaimed experts get to say what is best.
#83 Mon, 01/07/2008 - 6:06pm
Good reading...
A sensible designer wouldn't introduce chine on a flatwater sprinting hull; it's commonly known that round provides the least wetted surface in comparison, assuming all other design characteristics are the same.
Comparing OC's chined hulls to the others is difficult because the other characteristics (length, beam, rocker, displacement, wetted surface, deck shape, ect...) are different too. Not to mention the wide variety of engines on the paddle. Although new to this sport, I'd guess that many of the top racers are sponsored by thier manufacturers...(would K.jr paddle an chiner if K.sr didn't build 'em?), so it's hard to use Sundays winning boat as the standard. Especially since open water racing has such variable conditions (flat, windy, bumpy).
It was interesting to hear FR's account of the chiners catching up and passing rounders on the downwind portion of Blackburn. However, it was last leg of race and it could also be due to the tenacity of paddlers reeling in and pushing to end of race (or a combination); strategy.
Another problem [as far as I can tell] is that it seems each geographical area has differing populations of boats, likely due to availability of dealers or just plain historical bias.
Towing all the designs in a tank and measuring frictional & residual resistance would be one way to evaluate potential speed, but only on the flats with no wind to affect the deck shape. Using who won with what is not very accurate, but good marketing. It sells motorcyles and snow skiis for sure.
As for the bump, that's tough too since much has to do with how comfortable you are with your boat and it's trim. Hard to take advantage of different hull shapes if you're not in tune with the boat.
I'm digging the discussion though. Very tough to find comparative reviews of OC1's, especially for an FNG looking to drop 3K on a boat. I'm digging my boat but really interested in learning about the rest (or unlearning mistaken theories of my own).
So how 'bout the peggy? Whats the rocker, bottom shape, lenght, beam, speed on flats, wind resistance, speed on the bump, weight, and comfort??? Rambo's got an intro-review on his site (shameless plug for Rambo but from an FNG's point of view his wep-page efforts are much appreciated!!!).
Comfort was a huge factor for me b/c I want no excuses to get as much seat time as I can while developing my paddling.
Cheers.
#84 Mon, 01/07/2008 - 6:25pm
Chines act like a curved kiel when the boat is leaned unto the side.
This gives you better directional stability on the face of a wave.
You can probably use that to your advantage once you know how to.
#85 Mon, 01/07/2008 - 7:55pm
Fuze rider
Chines. some pictures would be great. if it is able to capture it on pictures. its hard at times. I thought it was like a roof top if you turned the canoe upside down ,near the front and or tail end.
#86 Mon, 01/07/2008 - 8:33pm
Kona J-
Great comments about the history of design. Funny, but I can remember talking to John Martin years ago when he was developing what turned out to be a dog of a boat. The Hihimanu...
That said, his original design was WAY different from what was produced finally, and this was due to John listening to input from many paddlers. Pretty much to a fault. Here are a few design concepts that John was talked out of...
-lower volume boat
-v shaped bow entry point which most fast designs have
-very high volume, short length ama, with a tiny nose.
-extreme arching of iako's to enable moving the cockpit to better balance the canoe and allow full extension for the paddler.
All that said, other designers may have been doing all these things at the same time John was. But I saw first hand his process, and can't help but feel bad for him now as people jump all over these new fangled designs that are coming out. Designs he was creating years back
Also please understand that I am pretty biased on this historical view since at the time I was paddling a two man Martin canoe in Kanaka Ikaika races. John was nothing but generous to two unknown guys who wanted to borrow a carbon boat. He regulalarly came up with new rudders for us to try in all different conditions without us even asking. He would even drive me to races or drop me off on Hawaii Kai runs to use other canoes I had borrowed from him. Too bad he didn't have any experience in marketing.
Good to see some debate on this thread finally, instead of just an endless stream of pictures featuring paddlers riding fuzes on the east coast and chine whoring.
#87 Mon, 01/07/2008 - 8:46pm
WOW! Thanks everyone for all the input on the fuze vs. pegasus posting. i never expected this much of a response and really appreciate it. The whole chines disscusion was great also. hopefully, if everything goes right i'll be on my one man early Feb.
In general I've tried the Fuze, Hurricane and Pegasus based on my size and weight. And as of right now i'm leaning towards the Pegasus. Time will tell if my choice was right but i have to jump in somewhere for a better point of reference.
See you guys on the water.
dave
#88 Mon, 01/07/2008 - 10:11pm
ddaniels,
Terriffic topic , lots of good info about those two boats was covered.
Many mahaloz for brining up the subject.
Have fun on your Pegasus.
Aloha ,
Fuzerider
P/s Come to Blackburn Challenge , Gloucester , Massachusetts in July. Bring all your friends and ohana.
Paddlers flying in from Tahiti or other South Pacific islands, Hawaii ,Australia, and California can contact any of the east coast dealers for boat availability. We will make every effort to get you in a good fast canoe . I hope all the manufacturers will send their best riders , friends and family to this race . It`s a great race course ,hot competition and party afterwards is fun too .
Here`s the link to Blackburn Challenge:
http://www.blackburnchallenge.com/
#89 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 4:16am
Was that THE Dave Daniels? Supah Dave, quit causing trouble!
#90 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 5:45am
Was that THE Dave Daniels? Supah Dave, quit causing trouble!
#91 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 5:45am
"Chine whoring...." that made me laugh.
#92 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 6:42am
Ya
quit causing trouble!
and making a fuze
#93 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 7:40am
.
#94 Sun, 01/13/2008 - 4:55am
I'll chine in on this topic...
If chines are designed to help on the surf or open ocean when the boat is leaning then it makes sense that they are not found on flat water kayaks. I think there are design restrictions also that would prevent the use of chines.
Why don't we debate on something more worth while like how to train or how hard to train rather than something that probably makes no difference at all.
Just my 2 cents....
Poopies
#95 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 10:38am
It has been a fun and informative thread. If we really want to move into the next mach surfing speed lets ask a builder to add a hydrofoil to an OC-1/2. Then we are talking ;-)
Check it out http://www.foilkayak.com/videos/
#96 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 2:17pm
I sasid its all been done before ,youve proven me wrong Pitty
holly cow
where do I get a set of them?
#97 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 2:35pm
First of all avtarless properly spelled is avatarless. That's kyrgyzian for godless. That's right you heathens . NO GOD = NO CHINES. And when you go to heaven, no wings all chines.
aloha
the godless spell checker
#98 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 5:49pm
A chinless canoe is like a fish with out fins.......but Many things make a canoe balance speed toughness price color accessibility I love my Peggy fins or no fins
#99 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 6:20pm
If you think I was kidding about using Hydrofoils for surfing with OC1s, check out this wicked video of Laird Hamilton applying this technology and surfing the big stuff using a foilboard.
Enjoy :-)
#100 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 7:21am
I say, with all the talented members on this forum, lets encourage the potential boat makers to start making OC1's with the Hydrofoils technology.
#101 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 8:15am
... and while they are at it they also should include a place where you can put your spare paddle for when you reach "foil velocity" you will be another 5-6 inches off the water so need a longer paddle!
Oh, forgot about that!!
#102 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 5:20pm
If you're serious about foils, just try experimenting with one small one on the rear most part of your Ama. It only needs lift maximum 4 inches at near surfing speed and you will have a very light Ama with good directional response from your rudder.
Something small like these shapes, you just have to experiment for the correct angle.
Modify an old rudder.
#103 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 8:55pm
When the foil isn't at max lift, is it dragging?
#104 Thu, 01/10/2008 - 4:13am
There are some problems with hydrofoils, we had it on a different thread.
They increase the wetted surface = drag; so you have to compensate for that somwhere else.
It works very well though: your ama is up, you have a very nice long glide per stroke, it's almost impossible to huli as the foil keeps the ama at a certain level. No water washing over the ama.
Some draw backs: you have to mount the foil somewhere. There are considerable forces, so it has to be a solid construction. I had a version that I ran next and outside the ama, extending from the iaku.
The additional weight didn't really hinder the whole thing though.
The main disadvantage: when the foil comes out of the water it has to overcome surface tension; much more, the moment it dumps back into the water, it works like a little break.
So you cannot fly your ama well. To avoid that you would have to make run your foill deeper, maybe 24 inches. That adds new constructional challenges.
It is a great training and fun experience unless you want to fly the ama.
Related to that: a foiled rudder may work well if you could build it small enough to reduce wetted surface. Few boats have a foil system, including race boats; that tells me that there are enough reasons not to have them.
A foil that you could engage and disengage according tho the conditions would definitely make you faster. It would likely be considered a different boat class.
#105 Thu, 01/10/2008 - 9:29am
Wow, that looks awesome Rambo. How did it perform?
Did it help or hamper the performance of the OC1?
#106 Thu, 01/10/2008 - 9:22am
Foils do not increase the wetted surface at surfing speed or a threshold speed in flats where there is enough lift to raise the boat hull out of the water. Go to the Flyak website and watch the video of the K1-Foiled vs. the K4, initially yes there is startup drag, but watch what happens when the foil causes lift at a certain speed even in this short sprint distance. The hull is off the water and therefore wetted surface goes way down and boat speed increases substantially. Once the hull is out of the water the amount of effort/force required to keep it there and maintain speed is less. Its pretty cool to see the theory in practice.
#107 Thu, 01/10/2008 - 5:42pm
Sure, that is the purpose.
#108 Thu, 01/10/2008 - 10:00pm
About the flyak :
One have to paddle very fast to reach the lifting speed. You need to be an Olympyc class paddler... Not my case !
Watch the movie, the front of the kayak get lifted firs, and the back gets deeper in the water, increasing drag. Then the paddler have to push harder to lift the whole thing out of the water.
This man cannot sustain such a speed for long distance.
Those foils only work well an flat water.
Sur a flyOC would look cool but how many of us would have the required skills to paddle it ?
#109 Thu, 01/10/2008 - 10:42pm
The Write brothers only flew for a few seconds there first flight but as time went on they got better at making the plane. evolution is now. some day we will have little steering controls on our toes and they will have fancy tips that bend up at the ends like on the jets. and then they will come out with a un manned canoe. Robo canoe (o) maby not.
Wii should have a Canoe game
chillax
#110 Thu, 01/10/2008 - 11:04pm
Hiro,
Watch some of the other videos. You will see that it is easy to sustain speed after the boat is out of the water for distance. There is a videon on the site with a guy paddling the boat and paddling relaxing slow strokes. With any technology there are new skills for anyone to learn and as the technology matures and gets evolved all things get easier and better. Hey if Laird Hamilton call foil surf on the baddest waves of Hawaii then eventually others will follow. Motor skills will get developed with use and time. Ever try paddling an Olympic/Sprint Kayak? Takes months to get off the dock at first without going swimming. Man I swam so much my first year I barely paddled, but as with all things time and senses and motor skills improve with practice.
#111 Fri, 01/11/2008 - 4:31am
I was looking at some gull's today there wings are very curvy almost like the palm of a hand and they have a bend in the length of the wing I would think that that would help in the flight. It would be worth it to look at a dolphins tail or even a whales.
just a thought
chillax
#112 Fri, 01/11/2008 - 11:50am
.
#113 Fri, 01/11/2008 - 12:39pm
Yes, but that foiled kayak is paddled with a double-bladed paddle, therefore keeping the net stroke rate higher than a man with "half a paddle" (as yakkers love to say).
Could a foiled boat on full lift stay lifted through the glide (ie: recovery stroke)?
#114 Fri, 01/11/2008 - 12:50pm
that surfer stays up
chillax
#115 Fri, 01/11/2008 - 1:46pm
could we put some chines on the foils ?
#116 Sat, 01/12/2008 - 12:12pm
Pegasus seems a great choice, unfortunately I am too heavy ...
When I hear Pegasus, I think 'Hurricane, trimmed for open ocean'.
This is not to say that there was anything copied or such things, it's just an association that I make: small volume, yet with more rocker, cockpit more forward, more experimets with the ama.
Is that impression about correct ?
How about the paddlers that are good in the open ocean with a Hurricane ?
It would be nice to hear your thoughts.
#117 Sat, 01/12/2008 - 9:44pm
Hey, re: eckharts comment. I agree with his assessment. I've paddled a hurricane in the surf for years..but feel I'm a bit heavy for it. I've tried a friends Pegasus..and LIKED it. NOW, I'm holding my breath for the SCORPIUS (to demo it) . Anybody have any thoughts on this boat?
#118 Sun, 01/13/2008 - 4:10am
oops , sorry for stuttering,
Fuze
#119 Sun, 01/13/2008 - 5:10am
Hi drewp,
what is the main draw back of being upper weight limit while riding the Hurricane in the waves in your experience ?
My own perception is that the trim is slightly off, just sitting an inch or two behind the sweet spot.
In the flat the boat releases very nicely, in the waves it always feels slightly 'uphill'; I see a lot of other people paddle the boat, some of them get on bumps real easily; maytbe a trim/weight issue.
Would this problem be resolved by moving the seat section on the Hurricane ?
Also: saw two boats at race day today on the beach: Zephyr and Tommy Connor's current boat. Both with very nice features, rather narrow boats
#120 Sun, 01/13/2008 - 2:30pm
Aloha,
I'm pretty much topping the scale as far as the hurricane is concerned (230+). As with any other boat, all it takes is getting used to it, especially in the surf. All boats surf differently and all have different strengths and weaknesses and such. So other than focusing on which one surfs better or runs better in the flats, people should focus more on making what they have work better for what they are trying to achieve. Unless of course you're one of the few paddlers out there that can afford a quiver of boats. Just my 2 bones.
A hui hou
#121 Sun, 01/13/2008 - 8:28pm