MIRAGE vs. TAHITIAN Canoe ; Which one is Faster in the Flat and surf well on Big Bumps?

Or try to develop a faster one if possible. Take a look at the strides the solo has made and the changes. e.g. the ama and seat ect.

Merry Christmas

#2 Thu, 12/20/2007 - 6:20pm

If nothing else, at least do away with the 400lb rule. Low 300s is no problem structurally without costing a lot of money.

#4 Fri, 12/21/2007 - 5:44am

we tryed a Fiji 6man thanks to a couple of our guys Ed & Ron it was a lot bigger than our Canadian made one.but felt faster than any canoe I have been on for them few moments.

#6 Fri, 12/21/2007 - 10:59pm

There isn't A tahitian design. Each shaper has its own design. Some are narrow, some are wide. some V6 are 12 metres long, others are 14...
Some V6 are good on choppy seas, some surf well long swells, some are made for flat waters...
whitewater is right. You will create new hawaiian canoes. In Tahiti, we are waiting to see what you will come up with.
There should not be a tahitian, a hawaiian or a fijian design... Outrigger canoe is a polynesian way of life, and each one of us is a polynesian. We should never forget that.

Merry Xmas to all.

#8 Mon, 12/24/2007 - 8:16am

Let the boat-builders do their thing. Look at what guys like Johnny P, Karel, Steve Blyth, John Martin, Kai, Tiger, et al have done for one-mans. Imagine the new six-mans in these guys' heads...
We mandate foam-core and fiberglass Mirages and Lightnings for what? Tradition? The traditions are in the koa boats, and in the Bishop Museum. Keep paddling alive, keep the competition alive - with progress.
Among all the marvelling of the Tahitians, has anyone ever accused tham of losing their culture? ...of not being in touch with their roots?
Outrigger tradition in Tahiti has continued it's march into the future unimpeded by the same regulations which have bound Hawaiian paddlers for decades. There's no limits placed upon the Tahitians in their quest to be the best outrigger paddlers in the world - and FOR NOW they have achieved their goal.
We need to play a little catch-up. We need to get "out of the box". For Hawaiian paddling, and Hawaiian paddlers, we need to unleash outrigger paddling from the archaic "rules" which aim to keep us in the 1950's.

#10 Mon, 12/24/2007 - 2:56pm

Everyone wants a good technological edge, but beware of the law of unexpected consequences.

Every time you introduce a boat that has a significant technical advantage, there will be a large group of paddlers who will not be able to afford the change over to the new boat and fall away. These OTHER paddlers will feel the playing field is not level and simply look for some other form of conpetition. These days lighter means more expensive and more delicate. At some point we are going to have boat breaking up mid-race, like some of the America's Cup boats, because they've been designed for speed rather than practicality. As you may have noticed, the America's Cup these days is won by the team with the most money.

Any changes to the rules should encourage boat designs that can be used for training as well as for racing. Any changes should allow for maintenance and repair materials and technology within the expense range of real people. Forget #$%^ carbon fiber.

The Molokai-Oahu race gets the participation of over 100 teams a year these days. That's because teams can come in from all over and borrow boats. That's been the genius of the race administrators, the availability of fairly uniform boats widescale. I've competed in seakayaking and the lack of uniformity has essentially killed seakayak racing. Surfskis are fairly uniform, seakayaks are not.

Make outrigger racing too technological and you'll be back to a race with a dozen teams.

Personally I don't think the sport is all about going fast. It is about physical fitness and camaraderie.

I have not problem with a special Iron division, but to the public, those changeovers are just awesome to watch.

#12 Mon, 12/07/2009 - 5:08am

Yeah ! Yeah Santa gimme a sit on 6

#14 Mon, 12/07/2009 - 9:53am

Australia now have official phasing in of lightweight 130kg unlimited design over the next 2 years just passed by AOCRA Commitee. The lightweight is not the exciting part, but the unlimited design is.

More info when the official docs released.

Cheers Rambo

#16 Mon, 12/07/2009 - 11:25am

Hey Bill, I know that you had your own design canoes in Kona at the Liliuokalani race ( which looks good ). Is those canoes more for Kona water? Have you had a chance to race them in rough water or the Molokai Hoe? Is thre any other clubs that have your style canoe?

#18 Mon, 12/07/2009 - 7:51pm

Bill - could you please explain a bit more about this sure fire rigging?
I'm having a devil of a time trying to re-rig my V1 - i had some old settings that worked, but i've had to do some repairs to the ama and kiatos and everything has changed. I normally just rely on trial and error..

#20 Mon, 12/07/2009 - 11:35pm

Most Tahitian made OC6's come in around 300. Regarding tradition and heritage, what is traditional about a fiberglass canoe? Hawaiians paddled many different hull designs, from single person up to boats that held 100 people. What tradition is a glass canoe? The tradition and heritage are not in the canoe designs, but more in the sport itself. If people of old had technology to use modern composites, do you actually think they would not use them? The world evolves.....enjoy the sport and don't get so wrapped up in the canoes themselves.
Current rules in Hawaii actual stifle the design of canoes, even disallowing designs that were around for centuries.
A standard is great, but allow the growth of the design to flow naturally.
Just my two cents, I don't pretend to know much...just wonder about so called tradition at times.

#22 Wed, 12/09/2009 - 12:18pm

I think my point was that through the years, the canoes will always change. Fiberglass in 10-50 years may not be the norm, you never know. However, the sport of outrigger paddling will basically stay the same, a paddle, 6 people, and paddling from one spot to another. To honor the "tradition" that's all you really need. We all cannot afford koa logs, or even consider paddling a koa canoe throughout the world. Though we all can share the experience of paddling.
I agree with you regarding Bill Rosehill, his canoes are works of art and his knowledge of canoe design is unmatched in Hawaii. Mucho kudos to Bill for sure.

#24 Wed, 12/09/2009 - 12:58pm

Hiro,
What is the "actual 'traditional' design" you refer to?

#26 Wed, 12/09/2009 - 6:45pm

The one that HCRA promotes as "traditional"?

#28 Wed, 12/09/2009 - 8:48pm

I believe at least some, if not all, were. Am I wrong?

#30 Wed, 12/09/2009 - 9:06pm

You are correct.

#32 Wed, 12/09/2009 - 9:24pm

Couldn't agree with you more, Hiro.

The problem as I see it, is with the influx of Westerners, decades passed here in Hawaii where it was not "in" to speak Hawaiian hence, be Hawaiian. Decades also passed where barge racing, similar to skull racing, was the predominant paddling (rowing) sport of the time. Outrigger racing took a back seat. As such, Hawaiian kupuna who had the knowledge and skill to design and build outrigger canoes passed on, leaving decades of void in this component of Hawaiiana. Then, when outrigger racing resurrected itself, the only canoes that survived those decades were utility fishing and surfing canoes, also used as baggage canoes. Thus, those were the canoes deemed "traditional" and which were used to derive the existing HCRA hull specifications.

Like Steve West writes in is book, Kanu Culture..."Only the village idiot would have suggested to his chief, that design limits should be implemented on hull design,........"

In my opinion, everyone who has contributed to this thread is on the right track.

#34 Wed, 12/09/2009 - 10:00pm

What Bill said about the rowing barge racing dominating in Old Hawaii was confirmed by the many stories and conversations i had with Nappy just this last weekend at the Aussie National Oc1 races. I cannot wait for Marta's Documentary to be released telling Nappy's story and that of the 9 Island Crossing he did last year

Nappy also has his own thoughts on what is "traditional"and what is not.
He was very specific that new canoe designs, which he fully supports, should retain identifying characteristics of their origin. He mentioned retaining the Manu's as a minimum no matter what materials the canoe is constructed from.
I think "tradition" is both the Canoe (in it's broadest sense) and the act of padding them for racing, food gathering, or just simple pleasure. It's not limited to any one thing.

If you get the chance, sit under a tree with Nappy and ask him to tell a story.
Cheers Rambo

#36 Sun, 12/13/2009 - 11:59am

There seem to be two lines of thought in this thread - those who appreciate
that there is more to a canoe than just the material form, and those who see
it as little more than a vehicle.

Sure, to spend enough money on the best in materials and technology, will
result in a marginal performance advantage. But is the loss of mana worth
the flashy appeal that comes with it?

#38 Sun, 12/13/2009 - 1:38pm

Above someone said the sport was all about going fast, and I said I thought it was more about physical fitness and camaraderie.

It is NOT about going fast in an absolute sense. You can buy boats today that will go faster than any boat can be paddled. Part of what the sport is about is being able to paddle a certain kind of boat faster than the other guy, or the other crew can paddle a boat that is reasonably equivalent to the boat you are paddling. Reasonably equivalent. And it is about allowing a large number of other people to have that same opportunity. Traditional really means not so complex that most people could not dream of putting a boat together that way. Traditional means the average Polynesian would never be able to purchase one or even touch one except with special help. Some sports have become that way. Only a small group of people can do some sports as they have evolved. Outrigger canoeing is about going faster within some boundaries.

It is about going faster using a paddle. It is about going fast using an outrigger attached to a hull. You chuckle, "well everyone knows that." But that's not true. I'll bet even on that there will be some disagreement.

There are also some other boundaries that make it satisfying paddling faster and faster. That's the problem. We're not completely sure what they are just yet, but I am sure however we can all think of possibilities where we'd say, "that's not outrigger canoeing."

It isn't just about going fast alone.

Going fast any old way is easy. In a way, we want to go fast in a way that's not easy. We want to go fast in a way that makes sense.

#40 Sun, 12/13/2009 - 6:47pm

Agree, Yankee..."It isn't just about going fast alone." There is a need for some boundaries. Hull design however, shouldn't be one of them.

Promotion of wood canoes should also be favored. After all, outriggers built of wood perpetuates culture and tradition.

A current Hawaii rule re koa and non-koa 'wood' canoes, disallows plank canoes in favor of canoes hewn from a log. The rationale being the desire to perpetuate the art of carving a koa canoe the '"ancient way". As noted in my earlier post, Hawaiians built plank canoes as well as dugouts. Therefore, if a builder can design and build a serviceable, competitive canoe with planks, he has proven he knows what he's doing just as he does so building a dugout. Both methodologies are "ancient ways", or "traditional."

Clubs would be able to afford strip plank koa canoes b/c they would be more cost-effective....dimensional koa lumber is more readily available and it takes less time to build. Ancestral Hawaiians also built canoes from drift logs carried by currents to their shores. Therefore, building today's canoes utilizing other woods would also be "traditional".....and the art will carry on to future generations.

#42 Fri, 12/18/2009 - 7:43am

Perhaps not, mulus. Koa color spans the entire spectrum from blond to black. The lighter the color, the less dense the wood hence, the lighter (in weight) the wood. Koa becomes denser (heavier) as it darkens. So, if light colored strip-plank koa can be ordered from the logger and/or retailer, one can still build a lighter-weight koa canoe that would be structurally sound and weigh in at considerably less than 400lbs.

#44 Sun, 12/13/2009 - 9:07pm

Yankee,

Going "faster within some boundaries" as you mention above will prevent freaks and platinum powered sinkholes from finding there way in to this sport. If these were allowed, we would witness the demise of the art of building an outrigger of wood. Building a canoe of wood is as much the culture of Polynesia as the sport of racing them. Emphasizing and promoting racing only, erodes a historical component of Polynesia, Hawaii in particular. This should never happen. If we wouldn't switch from koa ukuleles to plastic ones to perpetuate our music, we shouldn't entertain freaks and platinum powered sinkholes to perpetuate our outriggers.

#46 Mon, 12/14/2009 - 5:58pm

scuse the above post.........the cartoon that was supposed to go with it does not show up

#48 Mon, 12/14/2009 - 6:28pm

At the time HCRA hull specifications came to be, there was much controversy over specs set in stone as, it was not the Hawaiian way. The specs came about as the result of embarrassment.

Fiberglass canoes predominately took over due to the lack of koa logs. Environmentalists locked up our forests by zoning which prohibits taking logs out even if they have fallen naturally. Politicians here in Hawaii and across the nation have been brainwashed. But that's another thread.

The Big Island Racing Association has never agreed with HCRA hull specs and allows koa and non-koa canoes to be of unlimited design. Clubs here have them, and they are much faster than canoes built to meet HCRA specs. And I agree, Tahiti is another example.

#50 Mon, 12/14/2009 - 8:40pm

While the current HCRA specs were developed as a result of Tahitians beating everyone in the the Molokai Hoe, it did help define what was considered a Hawaiian design. The many Koa canoes that were measured in 1975/76 to determine the waterlines, were made by Hawaiians, or Hawaiians at heart, to compete.
They were made by people who had a deep pride and love of the sport, culture, and tradition of Hawaiian outrigger canoe paddling.
Whether the canoe is Tahitian, Hawaiian, Aotearoan, Californian or whatever, it is still the love and the pride of the people paddling it that makes it move.
The Queen Lili`uokalani long distance race is one competition where Hawaiian design and Polynesian design canoes can compete together. Sometimes the Polynesian design is fastest, sometimes the Hawaiian is.
It still comes down to the people paddling in the canoe.

#52 Tue, 12/15/2009 - 8:03am

Aloha Joe,
Mahalo for your opinions and observations.
I am still on the HCRA board.
The HCRA is comprised of over 65 clubs in 6 associations statewide. Na Wahine O ke Kai, the organizing body of the wahine Molokai race, and Na Opio, the organizing body for statewide outrigger racing for elementary, intermediate and high school age kids, are members also.
Each of the 6 associations has two voting members on the HCRA board of directors. These voting members bring input from their respective associations to the HCRA meetings held during the year. From this input, the board presents proposed race rules changes, by laws amendments, and officer candidates at the annual meeting held every December.
At the annual meeting a representative from each of the 65+ clubs votes on the proposed changes and officer elections.
This is basically how HCRA puts ideas from it"s members into action.
As for the vision of the HCRA. That can be summed up pretty well from the By-Laws.
The principal purposes of HCRA are to:
Engage in, promote, encourage participation in, and provide education and instruction in Hawaiian and Polynesian culture through canoeing and other related activities on a local, national and international basis.
Foster, encourage and promote interest in the sport and science of canoe racing and canoeing in the state of Hawaii.
Encourage, maintain and perpetuate authentic Hawaiian canoe racing and preservation of Hawaiian Koa canoes.
Promote competetive inter-club, inter island, and international Hawaiian canoe racing.
To me this means that we don't want to lose those things we consider to be Hawaiian. We also don't want to limit or handicap our paddlers while competing on a worldwide level by getting stuck in the past.
Fiberglass ama's, carbon fiber paddle blades, laminated iako's, computerized scoring and registration, digital finish line cameras and plastic paddler identification cards are not really considered a part of traditional Hawaiian outrigger
canoe racing. They have, however, been voted on and approved by the HCRA as methods of improving our sport through technology and equipment advances.
Many of the ideas in this thread are excellent, and worth considering here in Hawaii. Not everyone agrees all the time on how HCRA leads our sport, but everyone who is a member of HCRA has the opportunity to contribute to it.

#54 Tue, 12/15/2009 - 12:48pm

Mike,

To say the specs helped define what was considered a Hawaiian design, is amiss. Canoes measured to determine the specs were of one type....utility. That's all that survived the decades of outrigger void. There are many other types of Hawaiian canoes. All of them should have been given equal consideration. They weren't.

"Sometimes the Polynesian canoe is the fastest, sometimes the Hawaiian is. It still comes down to the people paddling in the canoe." This is true if one simply looks at which canoe crosses the finish line first, with no consideration given to the crews' ability.

However, put Team A Hawaii in a Polynesian canoe which finishes first overall. Team B Mediocre is in an HCRA spec canoe and finishes 30 minutes behind. The same two crews race the same course the following week with Team A Hawaii again in a Polynesian canoe finishing first. Team B Mediocre, now ALSO in a Polynesian canoe, finishes 20 minutes behind....10 minutes faster than their time last week. The Polynesian canoe by design, will improve any crews time therefore, is always faster.

When I race my Polynesian canoe, I don't cross first overall, but I know that whatever my placement, I did better than I could have in an HCRA spec canoe. I wanna go fast! It's simple....the same effort in an efficient hull design, yields more distance per stroke than the same effort in an inefficient design. Another analogy: one car running on 7 cylinders (inefficient), while another car runs on all 8 cylinders (efficient). Which one will go farther given the same time?

#56 Tue, 12/15/2009 - 6:04pm

Seats six, has ama, open cockpit, and powered by paddles…that’s it.

Hey Jim, isn't 'open cockpit' a design limitation? Canoes from Tahiti, Cook Islands & other parts of the Pacific have individual cockpits. Would it be more correct to say " Seats six, has ama, and powered by paddles…that’s it."?

#58 Tue, 12/15/2009 - 6:38pm

I'm just saying, if you're at all familiar w/ OHCRA, which is the organization which controls the hoe, then you know that change is unlikely to come from within the organization itself.

#60 Wed, 12/16/2009 - 6:00am

Bill,
I've had the good fortune of watching you build your waa, seeing the beautiful finished product, and enjoying paddling in them. Mahalo for sharing that.
While we don't always agree on the competetive arena for the different hull designs, we do agree that the long distance races are the best opportunity right now for the comparisons.
Perhaps a discussion on racing of "non Hawaiian" and Hawaiian design in long distance races, but maintaining the tradition of Hawaiian design in regattas, is a stroke in the right direction. I don't know if all would agree on how to determine a Hawaiian racing canoe, but the builders of the canoes measured in 1975/76 had shaped their hulls to race from what they had learned.
HCRA has over 8,000 paddlers, many of them younger than 18. For this part of our membership, education in the Hawaiian culture and traditions is more significant and meaningful. For them to have the experience of racing in the HCRA state championships in a Hawaiian Koa canoe is invaluable. There are few places in the world where anyone of any age group can say they had the opportunity to compete in a canoe that was once a living part of the land, and is now a living part of the sea. This is one of the main purposes of the HCRA..
Few of the younger paddlers will race long distance, and if they do, perhaps then we can provide them and everyone else the chance to see different canoe ideas from other areas of the paddling world.

#62 Wed, 12/16/2009 - 9:17am

Great thread!

This issue has already been addressed in Tommy Holmes' "The Hawaiian Canoe". You can buy it on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Hawaiian-Canoe-Tommy-Holmes/dp/0915013150

Tommy did a tremendous amount of research into the subject, the vast majority of the topics that repeatedly come up on this site have already been addressed in the book. Rambo, I'm sure you have a copy (saw the video of Tommy charging in your locker), if not, tell the mrs you want it for christmas!

"limits, like fears, are often just an illusion." -- MikeJ(ordan)

While I agree with MikeA that Koa canoes in the HCRA reggattas are good and that they provide an invaluable experience for not just the kids, but for everybody. I full heartedly support HCRA's requirement of Koa, on this front HCRA has been invaluable in preserving our past and perpetuating our culture. However, respectfully, I believe the discussion is in regards to distance racing and specs. Here are my thoughts.

Obviously, I think we all agree that there were Hawaiian Canoes before the specs. So it is safe to say Hawaiian canoes existed separate and apart from specs for thousands of years, with the only limitation being the size of the log and the intended purpose (fishing, racing, war, burial, travel, ect.). Then came the HCRA specs in 70s. Somehow, someway, HCRA took it upon themselves to define what was a traditional Hawaiian racing canoe, even though they had no specs from a traditional Hawaiian racing canoe. It would be illogical to think that only the canoes that followed the HCRA specs in time and fashion would be defined as being traditional Hawaiian because there existed canoes thousands of years prior that were both "traditional" and "Hawaiian." Illogical and ridiculous.

The current HCRA specs are at best a FICTION--a bunch of arbitrary numbers--not a traditional racing design. To say otherwise is disingenuous. On this point I agree with Bill.

HCRA has two choices, 1) include an unlimited category (perhaps with the requirement Nappy spoke of with na manu) in the distance races; 2) or be left in dust when another racing association is created using modern unlimited designs with, perhaps, no regard to things "Hawaiian." If HCRA truly believes it is exists for the purpose of preserving and perpetuating Hawaiian culture, then it must address and reconsider said illogical specs.

#64 Wed, 12/16/2009 - 11:27am

Good one Numeruno,
You're right about Tommy. His work and his books are outstanding.
Technically HCRA only establishes rules for one race, the HCRA state championships.
It's rules though are used as guidelines for the 6 associations, Na Wahine O ke Kai, and Na Opio.
The associations are not required to follow HCRA rules for their own events. but most do for consistency
Each club hosting an event, or an association organizing an event (OHCRA, Na Wahine and Na Opio) can determine the classification and awards for entries in their event based on their own rules.
Each association is a little bit different in how they run their races, but all recognize HCRA rules for hull specs.
Some associations and HCRA have an Open Class division for the canoes.
This division allows any shape and design, and any material for construction. The canoe must only have one hull, one ama, and two iakos seperated by at least one seat. There must be 6 seats. The maximum length is 45 feet and minimum racing weight is 400lbs. There can be no mechanical devices or additional attachments for steering, powering or bailing.
This rule allows the Koa to maintain it's place, but allows for other options and opportunities.

#66 Wed, 12/16/2009 - 12:31pm

If you do not mind - can you clarify what the traditional meaning of a 'living thing' is ?

The American flag is considered a living thing. A Koa canoe is considered a living thing.

What does this mean ? Living in a symbolic sense, living in the sense of the word ? Can someone give some cultural/language background for better understanding
- I' d appreciate it.

#68 Wed, 12/16/2009 - 8:08pm

Thank you very much, Bill.

It does not need to be discussed that one respects local beliefs and customs; yet, we as guests do not share the same heritage or ancestry and it would not make much sense to pretend that we do, either.

In return, it does not make much sense to criticise paddlers that have not been raised in this tradition simply for that fact.

Hawaiian tradition meanwhile includes haole, for the better and for the worse. Time brings change. I think that those who want to emphasize the things of old should do that, and those who want to venture into new adventures should do that - I do not see a necessary conflict.

#70 Thu, 12/17/2009 - 9:47am