Hey! Guys,
Which one do you think is a better OC 6 Boat? The Tahitian made boat that was use by TEAM LIVESTRONG at the MAUI to MOLOKAI race or the Foam core MIRAGE? IF they race next Year in MOLOKAI HO'E would they be in a different division? Look like in this sport, somebody is always raising up the bar to another level. New Canoe OC 1 or OC 6, training strategies, equipment, accessories, to get an Edge. Which sometimes it comes down to MONEY. We need big Sponsorship & Donation, or Big Price money which i believed would bring this sports to a higher Level. Every year more people Racing, 111 Boats in Molokai Ho'e can you imagine next year. Housing accomodation getting short in MOLOKAI. This Sport is Exploding in different angles, don't you think.
Submitted by Kaipu on Thu, 12/20/2007 - 3:25pm
Cup boats have a formula. Why not set some new guidelines ( as in a new, unlimited class ) with room for future developement. The cream will rise to the top and lots of boatbuilders will have jobs once again as they did long ago.
aloha,
pog
#71 Thu, 12/17/2009 - 11:38am
Per MikeA: It appears there is already a open class in HRCA.
This division allows any shape and design, and any material for construction. The canoe must only have one hull, one ama, and two iakos seperated by at least one seat. There must be 6 seats. The maximum length is 45 feet and minimum racing weight is 400lbs. There can be no mechanical devices or additional attachments for steering, powering or bailing.
This rule allows the Koa to maintain it’s place, but allows for other options and opportunities.
I don't think there is as much hull speed to be gained by making boats a few lbs less, compared to what can be gained by new hull designs. Not to mention, going the path of light boats will definitely increase the costs.
I'm not sure what other guidelines that need to be set for an unlimited class. Seems fairly wide open now.
#72 Thu, 12/17/2009 - 12:30pm
Someone mentioned earlier that this discussion should be left for Hawaiians to settle, and although I agree with the idea, it is too late to shut up and back out.
If the only ones contributing here were pure bred Hawaiian, directly related to the first inhabitants of the Island, then it would be out of place to make any further comment….but that is hardly the case.
As far as canoes go, the same canoes that brought people to Hawaii are the ones that carried seafarers to the other Polynesian Islands, and the canoes are what we are talking about.
Understanding the canoe in order to build them is the basis of my input here, and from that angle I can clearly see where Bill is coming from. If there is any credibility in words here, then the evidence of beautifully crafted and fast canoes are enough.
One does not need to be brought up and indoctrinated in an ancient culture to be in touch with the mana of the wa a. Spending many years seeing the shapes and flow lines in the mind, while breathing in the substance of the form is enough……..
Hey, if it means breathing in some inorganic compounds to give the canoe life, then that is OK too. But you have it good with the Koa Bill.
Sure, formulas and numbers work to make floating things………..that is the way it is done with jetskis, also cars, planes and trains come to think of it .
If the only real difference is human power instead of motor power, why even stipulate that there must be seats, ama and iako.
OC = Open Class paddle power makes the most sense…….foot powered paddle wheels will even help to add speed.
If there is even one regulation other than hand held paddle power in order to keep connected to the traditional, then there will automatically be others to follow.
#73 Thu, 12/17/2009 - 1:24pm
Eh guys! I guess the discussion on this subject has died down somewhat, lets see if I can get it started again. After viewing "Rambo's" *videos from Vaka Eiva 2009, I thought of those of you who wanted to go fast. I thought to myself that this event would be a great race to attend and gather knowledge as to what design of canoe to build. My friend, Joe Ah Yuen has attended this race with Nappy and the men of Anuenue for two years now and has never had a bad thing to say about it. I'm sure he will be going again next year. I noticed that most of the canoes followed the same design though some were a little different. I also watched the jr. sprints and all of the canoes were the same probably to make sure that the playing field was level and no crews had an advantage over the other. I guess what I am saying is that when everything is equal, what's in the seat is what really matters.
I have read in some of the threads where you would just show up with a illegal canoe and just take the DQ. Here's my suggestion, how about we ask the good folks at OHCRA, because I paddle on Oahu, to make a special race where we race only fiberglass "malia" molds for one regatta. We leave all the hull designs at the halau and race the grand lady of canoe racing. On that day it will only matter as to what is in the seat !
After every entry into this site I always end with "Big Boys Kick and Glide". I do this for a reason because I am a big boy. Therefore I do have one christmas wish, I wish that the OHCRA would make a Big Boy class for guys that are 225 lbs. and over. No age limit just weight. Myself (Rodney Awong) and Gilbert Silva would love you guys forever. Water Cures All ! "Big Boys Kick and Glide"
#74 Mon, 12/21/2009 - 11:19pm
Cut2above, the new V6's being made now in Rarotonga are shorter, about the same size as a classic 40ft, but weighs 115 - 120kg or 250Ib. It is also very wide at seat 3 and 4. The canoe is called the Tai-Mana, that is the canoe the Open men are putting in the water at the start of the video.
Not sure that will generate any discussion for you but these are the canoe paddled there now.
Cheers Rambo
#75 Mon, 12/21/2009 - 11:50pm
To keep the ball rolling.
How and when can we determine what is traditional?
For Hawaiian canoes we know fiberglass is not because of the material used, but the shape can be traditional.
At what point in time in the building of Koa or any other racing canoes can we say canoes are or are not traditional? Is it prediscovery? Is it pre annexation? Post 18th century?
Who determines traditional? Is it a royal decree? Is it one or more kalai waa's concepts? Is it a basic shape or a combination? Is it the entry point of the canoe waterline? The release? The middle?
We see the obvious above water differences between Hawaiian and Polynesian canoes, how different are they below the water line? We know the Hawaiian and Polynesian vaa are related. Where do we establish the difference?
There are folks in this thread with excellent knowledge and experience. Answers to these questions can help us all move forward.
And I'm not running for office.
#76 Wed, 12/23/2009 - 10:56am
Mike, why do you differentiate by saying 'Hawaiian & Polynesian'? Isn't Hawaiian & Polynesian culture the same thing? The island groups of the Pacific Basin were discovered & colonised by Polynesians so therefore all Pacific culture/traditions are related (i.e. Polynesian) or am I talking through my hat?
#77 Wed, 12/23/2009 - 11:04am
Hasto,
I think most of us understand the Hawaiian and Polynesian cultural and traditional connections.
There is a visible difference though in the canoes above the waterline. The Polynesian canoe carvers/builders
at some point covered parts of the top of the hull with wood, and the manu's (front and rear) are noticeably different than their Hawaiian counterparts. What though, is the difference below the waterline?
#78 Wed, 12/23/2009 - 12:00pm
Nothing.
#79 Wed, 12/23/2009 - 12:15pm
With all due respect . Maybe the definition should include, if It looks like, feels like, is ridden by, and also made by,,then it's a ( _________ ) Canoe.
#80 Wed, 12/23/2009 - 12:58pm
The Maori canoes....polynesian...are totally different. No outriggers. I do not know what Tongan and Samoan canoes looked like. Islands outside the triangle- still polyenisian such as Kapingimarangi in Micronesia were more like their micronesian neighbors. The Micronesian canoes actually had asymetrical hulls and were made for speedy sailing between atolls- 15 knots. They could care less about paddling.
The sketch of a tahitian canoe was made in 1820,
#81 Wed, 12/23/2009 - 4:46pm
I'd suggest not confusing "traditional" and "historical" in this discussion.
#82 Wed, 12/23/2009 - 7:01pm
Hi all,
Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.
I love the culture and eagerly ingest anything and everything that I am able to obtain. For my fellow haole' think of the ironics that a culture that developed almost completely isolated, has Aloha "Love" as it's foundation for interaction, Mana "karma/Do unto others" for it's Morality, and endearing respect for it's higher powers. Sounds eerily familiar as their religion. As much as Christians, Budhists, or Muslims. Therefore we should respect it as such!
I am amazed at how many new haole's as adults have so little respect for the traditions and culture, this coming from a haole that went to high school here and probably has more reason to be upset, being chased down the hallways for my lunch money, 35 cents. But if you consider the age it all makes sense, the ones chasing us calling us haole' probably had little if any hawaiian in them or their upbringing. My best friend Steven was 1/4 hawaiian and he was being chased also. The moak's were probably less. Unfortunately this has given hawaiians a bad rep. from the stories myself and others who grew up here have told. btw, how many haole's have you seen drinking beer and dumping them at the beach parks. Sorry if this offends anyone, but you know it's true. The thing to remember is that not all locals are hawaiian and that kids will be kids in any culture. I also look at things in a different light such as Auntie Sammie said "I always thought my name was @$%&($@ haole' " when describing her beginning years of paddling. Most of the adults of hawaiian decent have never said or done anything disrespectful of any culture. I also believe that the elders I have been fortunate enough to meet have an incredible quiet wisdom about them (Uncle Ed and Sonny Tanabe I wish I had paid more attention when I was a teen ager). I enjoy the cultural stories I have found on some of the Canoe Club websites, funny thing though seems like there are more hawaiian cultural stories found on mainland canoe club sites. I found one on a Seattle Canoe club site and another on a Portland site.
I think the canoe specs should be be saved, for the koa's because they are beautiful/priceless antiquities and attempt to retain the cultural links. The older fiberglass too should be saved and have they're divisions as it is now, primarily because clubs have spent soo much money on them it is rediculous to think everyone will be able to obtain new boats to compete in a new devision, but they are and will be around such as Bill and Waikoloa's canoe's on the Big Island. It probably would be nice if they devided it into two one for unlimited wood and another for composite.
But if your thinking of add these to Regatta season forget it I'm not staying in that water in Hilo till 8pm. Sorry just a newbie rambling on.
BTW, anyone know of any OC1 strip plank molds? Bill?
I may just make my own for the experience.
-Bill S
#83 Thu, 02/18/2010 - 5:01pm
Y
#84 Fri, 02/19/2010 - 2:49am
^you spelt moke wrong
shoots
#85 Fri, 02/19/2010 - 8:56am
B.B.
Canadian red cedar looks great. the weight would be up there for a competitive single. but for a double it could be possible. but for safety reasons you wouldn't want to get to thin on the strips. Thanks for .2$.
#86 Fri, 02/19/2010 - 11:15am