Heres some pics of that 197lb tahitian design canoe. I saw it in kona last year, I was so impressed by the design and workmanship I had to get some photos of it. I Also spoke to some of the guys who paddled in it and they were amazed by how fast it gets up to speed.
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Submitted by 808waa on Tue, 06/17/2008 - 8:45pm
Wonderful wonderful discussion going on here, best for a long time. I would like to see some more opinions on this so i have emailed Westy (Steve West of KanuCulture) to enrich this thread. Please anyone else who's opinion and input you think may be valued, email or let them know.
Thanks Rambo
#71 Tue, 06/24/2008 - 11:15pm
goowaka, nothing looking like a sit on top Va'a around here... You're right, a va'a can hold water. A lot of water. And our paddling association (Fédération Tahitienne de V'aa) has rigid rules about this point : only bailers are allowed. No pumps, either manual, foot activated or electrical...
#72 Wed, 06/25/2008 - 12:39am
Hiro, you have an article on your blog about pumps in a V1 http://tuaruavaa.blogspot.com/2008/01/installation-dune-pompe-de-cale-da...
I cannot read French, but can you explain the reason you have it if it's banned????
Cheers Rambo
#73 Wed, 06/25/2008 - 2:01am
Would we be having this discussion if the Tahitians had not come to Hawaii and handed us our butts (and using our canoes!) If they routinly got 3rd or 4th (or even further down)would the fact that their canoes evolved different than ours be anything more than an interesting side note?
Still how do we balance evolution or even revolutionary change with tradition. I'm an old guy and probably lean too much toward tradition.
To Goto's point: Sailing too has a long and very convoluted history and tradtion-esp where it involves design and rating rules and changes to the latest materials, construction, fashion, scietific thought , and etc ---most of them involve applying lots of $$$$$$. At this point I don"t think OC racing is heading there but it is something to be resisted.
#74 Wed, 06/25/2008 - 5:20am
Again, as I stated earlier, allowing losing clubs to "claim" the winning canoe for a predetermined (and greatly reduced) price buts a real damper on unlimited spending to buy wins and results in keeping overall costs down. It works in other sports.
#75 Wed, 06/25/2008 - 5:56am
There is no perfect answer.
This might be a good topic for Keizo to make a survey. He use to do that years ago.
My thoughts.
I still like in fact strongly like the idea of lining up with boats that are pretty much the same in terms of weight, design, and let us not forget safety. Even Bill R. brags he can make a faster and better designed HCRA boat.
Yes the elite paddler wants an elite boat.
How about keep HCRA and drop weight restriction to 300 pounds?
I believe Mainland/Canada and in some respects Australia follow the lead of Hawaii-if however Hawaii can get on the same page.
US mainland/Canada and Australia might bolt and start doing their own thing.
If you have an unlimited category and a HCRA category, some clubs, teams and paddlers will be left behind. Even more of an elitist attitude will develop with even more club jumping.
I can see 3 to 4 exclusive unlimited races developing, but the Molokai Hoe in my small opinion should be HCRA and the week after maybe an unlimited no-change race from Molokai-to Oahu
Who knows? Things will change.
I know that it will happen if we do go to unlimited that a crew develops and makes a superlight boat that falls apart in a big race due to pushing the envelope on weight, construction, and safety.
#76 Wed, 06/25/2008 - 7:10am
Once again I may be wrong (what u say Hiro C) but think that the dynamics of
the paddling scene in Tahiti is conducive to promoting excellence. This
involves design, build and maintenance of vaa along with commitment to
paddling form.
For a relatively small population compared to Australia and Hawaii (which is
a US state anyway, so has in effect a huge population base) Tahiti certainly
has the greatest wealth in paddling ability.
Sure! They have sponsored paddlers, just like Jr Tresnak, who can afford to
put in as much time as required in getting to the top - this is expected at
top level. But I guess the real wealth is in the numbers that are encouraged
to get paddling and try to reach the top.
As B Rosehill says, the rules to attempt keeping the Tahitians down the race
placings have not worked for 6's.
Maybe it is working on the solo division by changing the rules to include
sit-ons - however I don't think that this serves well in the long term
towards keeping the oldest of all watersports healthy.
#77 Wed, 06/25/2008 - 10:32am
Kona J
Bill has already made several better designed fiberglass canoes that meets HCRA specs. As a matter of fact some of our top paddlers have been training in his canoes for several months now. His canoes are usually the first that gets put in the water. A bunch of them actually said they prefer his canoes over the other more popular designs. He has a two new canoes just out of the mold, that he is finishing up. You should jump in when you're in the neighborhood.
#78 Wed, 06/25/2008 - 7:06pm
Rambo,we were talking about V6/OC6. Pumps are not allowed in V6s. You can use them in V1. The FTV says that pumps are NOT TRADITIONAL, that's why we can't have one in a V6. Does it mean that they become traditional in a V1 ??? So for tradition's sake, we are not using pumps in our V6s, instead we use bailers made from plastic oil cans... very traditional indeed !
You complain about HCRA rules, we have some people here, at the FTV, who never sit in a canoe for the past 20 years, edicting incoherent rules... very funny !
#79 Wed, 06/25/2008 - 8:12pm
The thing that i never really understand is how it's always played out as tradition vs. modernity or tradition vs. radicalism etc...
Isn't it the outrigger canoe that makes outrigger canoe paddling so much more than a sport. It's the canoe that is our link to the past... not the paddlers... not the stroke... not the paddles. And the result of the regulations is that nowadays we generally have two competitive models of canoe in Hawai'i. The regulations have disempowered the outrigger canoe because they are all the same.
I've read a lot of old newspaper articles from the first twenty years or so of Moloka'i races (50s-70s). In the early years there was so much more talk about the canoes. Part of it is because they were all Koa and the nature of a Koa canoe is such that they will be more honored. But part of it is that there were so many different designs, and every design and every canoe seemed to have it's own story (which the newspaper would talk about). The race in 1976 had the best story of them all. The Tere Mata'i was built in Tahiti and shipped across the Pacific in order to win Moloka'i... and then they crushed everyone. And then at the verge of this huge revolution as two cultures met head to head... some people got together and squashed it all. And now we are left with no evolution because the revolution that was supposed to happen... never happened. And the story's in the paper about the canoes stopped... and now it's all about the paddlers.
Fast forward thirty years and it's getting interesting again.. Tahitians are dominating again, and they're doing it in a different type of canoe.... albeit not a Tahitian one.
I'm sorry if i offend anyone, but i strongly disagree that tradition is being preserved in any way. If anything all the regulations have done is relegated outrigger canoe paddling from what it should be.... almost to the level of a sport. If all that we care about is competing on an even playing field so that we can test which athletes have better genes... then let's go running or to the World Sprints (both of which i do enjoy doing).
#80 Wed, 06/25/2008 - 8:20pm
goodwaka, I think that in Tahiti, the absence of strict rules for waterline lenght, shape of the hull/deck, promotes creativity. People are free to try new things, when they have an idea, they can try it... noone will get disqualified in a race because of the shape of his canoe (It must have a hull, a 'ama and 2 iatos).
In many clubs, they are constantly modifying their V6s, shortening or lenghtening them, changing the rocker, etc. to try new things. Some are talking a mold from the bow of a canoe, and another mold from the stern of another canoe, and then build a hull to connect these two pieces together. Not all those canoes end up being rockets... but sometimes something nice comes from this process.
#81 Wed, 06/25/2008 - 8:26pm
Interesting reading and especially Bill's input on this issue. The ramifications of the introduction of 'specification rulings' were profound in their effect in so far as retarding any meaningful advancement of the outrigger canoe as a racing craft when in point of fact, there existed no evidence of 'purpose made' racing canoes until the building of the 'Aa`a' in Hawaii. Justification for the implementation of specification limits in order to protect 'traditional' Hawaiian racing canoe designs is in short, rubbish.
But what I find most disturbing, is that during the early 70s when native Hawaiian and Tahitian canoe builders and designers were creating so called 'hybrid' canoes, non-native Hawaiians intervened labeling this as wrong-doing and meddling, when the canoe was not of their culture, not of their creation and therefore not theirs to impose limits upon. Tahitians and Hawaiians have strong cultural bonds and it is not the place of 'Anglo-Polynesians' as it were, to interfere.
As I have written in my book, only the village idiot would have suggested to his chief that the advancement of the outrigger canoe must be ceased via the implementation of rules and one has to seriously consider why this was. Another theory, suggests that at this time, mid 70s, fibreglass manufacturers were seeking some protection mechanism by which to ensure that one-off canoes could not be built faster than what was on offer out of the mold, thereby affecting sales. In any event, the fact remains, around the Pacific and beyond where the sport is practiced, associations have the option to adopt which ever canoe type they wish.
We are soon to import the ROC Tahitian style canoe into Australia, which will open a can of worms so far as our rulings are concerned, seeing as we adopted HCRA rulings as far back as 1988.
Great topic.
Steve West
http://www.kanuculture.com
#82 Wed, 06/25/2008 - 8:59pm
Hiro C, the creativity that you speak of is another factor which I find appealing about Tahitian OC.
The variety of vaa, and number of paddlers on the water shows the depth of culture, as well as the spirit of freedom encouraged by a minimum of rules. At the same time it is good to hear that this freedom has not tempted you guys to abandon the basic character of a vaa which allows the home-grown industry to stay alive.
Good to hear now that a Tahitian V6 which was taken to be built in Raro, is now being taken to Australia. Meanwhile here in NZ Aotearoa there is a rule that allows only one type of waka made by one manufacturer to race at national level....so much for freedom and creativity
#83 Thu, 06/26/2008 - 12:26am
I was under the impression that the weigth of OHCRA for the hulls was 400pounds to match what a Koa canoe weights.....so even if fiverglass would take over the market (being more viable) ,as the sport would grow ,every crew who enter a race would have eqaul chance..........
on the other hand we have Tahiti and the IVF pushing the variables to benefits Athlets performances.......and one of IVF main goal is to achive Olympic status.....therefore lighter-faster canoes has a big GO.
very, very interesting how this equation will develop, and main thing how it evolve worldwide as one notion.
isn't unity the spirit of VA'A ?
As the President of the Argentinian Outrigger Asosiation i'm sure we want to do our growing true to the traditions and at the same time having fun exceling our performances.
Aloha nui and keep us updated........
#84 Thu, 06/26/2008 - 5:33am
This is an interesting topic. I can see both sides of this issue. Here's how I see it. There's no easy answer.
Right now we have HCRA with rules on canoe specs which hopefully allows the best crew to win and not the crew with the fastest canoe to win. I can see the validity in this. It makes sense. I think we have to go into HCRA sanctioned races with the mindset that we are NOT racing in the fastest boat. We are NOT racing one canoe against another but one CREW against another. Which in my mind is what racing is all about. Lets make everything equal and see which crew is better.
But at the same time we have reached a point where the canoe specs have locked us in time and is restricting the evolution of the Hawaiian canoe when everywhere else canoe evolution is alive and thriving.
In the past several years the ILH kayaking program has kicked around the idea of ILH buying 30 of the SAME kayaks and sponsoring the ILH kayak races. Right now kids can race in any kayak as long as its 30 lbs. People are criticizing the ILH because this is unfair, some boats are faster than others and the rich schools have the advantage because they can buy the faster boats. Or the rich ids can buy their own personal boats. It might be a good idea to standardize the ILH kayaks. That way the kids walk away knowing, without a doubt, who the best kayaker is.
Now here's how I feel about this deal here:
At pretty much any race a lot of preparation has occurred for that crew to be there at the starting line. Not just the training or the canoe, but a variety of other aspects and sacrifices. Money, traveling, family, relationships and the such. That crew has been through a long journey to get to that starting line. Maybe their whole lives, however you want to look at it. What I am trying to get at is canoe racing is not about who are the best athletes or who has the fastest canoe. Its about who is the best team. So why not have an open-unlimited class. You may argue its only for the rich, or the people with the best connections, but when it comes down to it, whoever wins that race is the best TEAM. They went out and found a good boat, they trained, they took that long journey and they did it the best out of anyone else. Isn't that what paddling is about? They may not have been the best genetic athletes but they were the best "paddlers" that day!
If you're serious about what you do, you will find the means to do so.
A quick word about tradition. In my own mind, and Goto elaborated on this. Tradition is not in the canoe you paddle, your paddle you use, the water you paddle in, its in your heart and soul. If you carry tradition in that manner it will thrive and live forever while a canoe will eventually rot away.
That was way too long of a post.
Poopoooo
#85 Thu, 06/26/2008 - 9:31am
The sport aspect covers the team and individual paddler ability - this
aspect is true for a number of sports, making the equipment a mere
accessory.
Tradition comes into OC because it only began after someone had crafted a
canoe from a log - in fact, this was the very first act of shaping a form
to move through water with the intention of efficiency in energy
application, or PADDLING.
While a bunch of Celts may have kicked a hedgehog about to 'invent' the game
of football, then evolution taken care of improving the ball with the aid of
technology, OC does not slot into the same scheme of things.
Canoe carvers/builders, have always been very much at the centre of
activity, and have been highly regarded in Oceanic society.
Sure! It's all changed now, where info can be punched into a computer and
robotic action carry this info via CAD/CAM to shape a block of foam which is
covered with a skin of carbon. Add a rudder, some pipes and sundry other
plastic fittings to mass produce a piece of sporting equipment, and much of
tradition becomes meaningless.
But ! the current form of Tahitian vaa still hold s onto the traditional
aspect in a way that enriches the sport..........
#86 Thu, 06/26/2008 - 10:50am
I think that poops has summed it up well, especially about tradition. Tradition is in ourselves, its not something that you can physically touch.
Six people who know nothing about paddling, put into a koa canoe do not make tradition.
Six paddlers who are steeped in the culture, history, and life of canoeing put into a new design canoe made of unobtanium are tradition.
We live tradition, we don't buy it.
#87 Thu, 06/26/2008 - 11:42am
Hey I was thinking about Jibofos post. hawaiians used their canoes for war. So if we want to keep traditions going we better go out and fight on our canoes. How awesome would it be if we had 6 canoes of which all paddlers were armed with paintball guns. That would be awesome. Would you paddle or shoot? I dunno? Crap that actually sounds super fun.
#88 Thu, 06/26/2008 - 12:05pm
When tradition has nothing to do with the canoe, and is in the heart of the paddler, then Lewis Laughlin is living out OC tradition in the Molokai solo when he paddles a surfski.
#89 Thu, 06/26/2008 - 12:12pm
Good discussion...
It is now evolving into a more philosophical argument between change and not to change, or why change and what is change.
A world without borders is chaos. So we need rules. What rules do we want to change? Or maybe its not the rules but the leadership.
The word tradition comes from the Latin word traditio which means "to hand down" or "to hand over." So our kule'ana is to pass on what has been passed to us. How do we choose to do this?
Personally, I would like to have a lighter boat that can handle surf (Molokai Hoe) like a 1man. Make distance racing more enjoyable. To me that sounds like a reasonable start.
#90 Thu, 06/26/2008 - 2:06pm
Why even have separate events for 'world championship' solo paddling.
Open class solo will allow anything that is paddled by one person -- first across the channel is the champion in the tradition of OC. Provided they make a declaration that they have a heartfelt respect of paddling tradition.
#91 Thu, 06/26/2008 - 2:09pm
poopsie, you stun me with your earnest response.
as much as people are prolly sick of hearing Tahiti this or Tahiti that. i think they've got it pretty close to correct as far as rules go. you must have a hull, an ama, two iako, single bladed paddles, and no engines or pumps.
#92 Thu, 06/26/2008 - 3:49pm
Poops is on it again with the battling canoes, but drop the paint ball guns. If we're going to be traditional we'll have to go with the paddles with shark's teeth on the edges.
Seems that I remember a thread here about a year and a half ago about one Big Island paddler beating on another with his paddle. And all this time we thought it was some sort of dispute, but now we know that it was just an outpouring of traditional sentiment.
#93 Thu, 06/26/2008 - 4:50pm
You know, you're right Jibofo. ... every time the paddler behind me knicks me with his blade on side changes, i get this sudden primal urge to turn round and belt him. Thanks for explaining my actions , i feel much better now knowing that i'm just reacting to tradition.
Cheers Rambo
#94 Thu, 06/26/2008 - 7:07pm
As seen through eyes of newcomer to this sport, with utmost respect to mothers/fathers who's shoulders we stand on:
Tradition for me is learning, understanding, and respecting the roots, not being held rigidly back by contemporary interpretations of it. Try as you might you can't change the innate desire of people to improve things.
Isn't this why they have one-design's in sailboat racing? To have classes that test more human factor than money or design improvements? Seems so simple to me.
People often get worked up on perceptions about the future that's largely unwarranted. Being competitive in unlimited class would be costly, but enjoyable and IMO would benefit OC paddling overall. It wouldn't be detrimental to stock/one-design class, in fact it would probably put more spotlight on it since it would highlitht the crew, not the vessel.
But all I think I'm doing here is agreeing with all the other posts...
As a newcomer to OC paddling with experience in many other water/ocean sports (and respect for thier roots), my first reaction to the OC6's was "paddling with these folks is awesome, but this thing is kinda silly, its design/construction is juvinile" Rather than insult the club with my rookie opinions, I hit the books and researched the sport. Reading Steve West's book, I agree with his views. Anglo-Euro imposed restrictions on OC paddling have nothing to do with tradition and everything to do with fear; so much for revering and emulating the courage of polynesion migrators. So we'll see where this goes. Until then I'll paddle as best I can for kanu-mates in whatever craft available.
#95 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 5:35am
damn those anglo-euro people. they're always fouling things up.
i'm pretty sure no matter what rules committees decide on. people will start racing faster boats, whether or not it is met with approval or a DQ. this has all ready been proven on the big island.
#96 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 7:42am
There is another part to this that I see. Right now a club can go out and buy an OC6 for not that much money, so there is no incentive to try an build a canoe on your own. But if we open up the design and canoes get really expensive, all of the sudden the small clubs will not be able to afford that canoe. Because of this I think that it will bring those clubs together even more to try and design and build their own canoe. Clubs will start coming together even more trying to come up with a design that can compete with the Kamanu Composites latest carbon fiber one-off canoe. Clubs will start recruiting people who have a knowledge of craft building so that they can help out the club. I really think that this will open up the sport to more people and bring the clubs together even more. I will admit that I haven't paddled for a club in awhile, but while I did I had no connection to any of the club boats except the Koa. However I feel that if I had a hand in the design and building of a canoe that I would have much more of a personal connection with it, and thus with paddling and the history of the sport. I know I am not a frequent poster, but this had me thinking and it was a topic that I brought up a few years ago(http://www.ocpaddler.com/node/1184), and I am glad that it is getting this much interest. The design of the canoe might be enough to get me out of the house and paddling again.
Nathaniel Evslin
www.nekine.com
#97 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 7:44am
Nevslin is right. People complain that small clubs won't be able to afford canoes if we go unlimited. But look at it this way, everyone said that about the Mirage when it started winning Molokai. What club doesn't have one? I am a firm believer that poverty breeds creativity. Or crime I guess, friggin ice heads.
#98 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 9:03am
I believe Kona Athletic, Bill Rosehill's club, is the smallest on the Big Island, and they, or he, have two of the Tahitian canoes.
Is it really a Tahitian design, or is it Polynesian?
#99 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 10:46am
Here is the wording in the HCRA Race Rules for 2008.
This particular rule has been there for years.
The rules can be seen by all at www.hcrapaddler.com
E. OPEN CLASS CANOE SPECIFICATIONS
1. An Open Class canoe shall follow the requirements of Article V (A) and V (B)
above, except for hull design specifications. There are no design restrictions
other than those set forth below.
2. The canoe shall be a (6) six-man, single hull canoe, rigged with a single ama and
double 'iako, separated by at least one (1) seat. It shall not exceed forty-five (45)
feet in length. There shall be no mechanical devices or additional attachments
for bailing, powering or steering. Fiberglass canoes must have positive
buoyancy.
#100 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 11:24am
Many years ago, I remember Kai
Opua brought a canoe to the HCRA state championships in Kaneohe. Mahoe I think was the name. We all went to look at it because KaiOpua had been doing really well with it on their island, and it was supposed to be a rocket. They couldn't race it at states though because it didn't meet the HCRA specs. Would that make Mahoe an open class canoe? Is Mahoe still racing?If so, how can the association on the big island allow a canoe to race that isn't HCRA legal? Are there other canoes like Bill Rosehill's and Mahoe racing on the big island or one of the other Hawaiian islands?
Any one out there know some of the answers?
Thanks
#101 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 12:22pm
usually the rule that most people are focused on is the 400 lb minimum.
#102 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 1:01pm
As a kid paddling with Kai Opua in those days, I remember we were not allowed to paddle our canoe 'cause it didn't pass HCRA specs. We had to paddle in canoes borrowed from clubs with no crews in a particular event.
I know at some point Moku O' Hawaii had diiferent specs from HCRA /OHCRA. I don't know if it was before or after the construction of the Mahoe and Maihaa(I believe).... built at the same time. Maybe someone such as Mr.Rosehill can fill in the blanks.
Mahoe was a great canoe to paddle. The water felt like it was closer to you than in other canoes.
#103 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 1:17pm
Hey Poops
The first rule about fight club... We do not talk about fight club.
The second rule about fight club... We do not talk about fight club.
No but seriously to go even more into tradition were the first canoes that people raced in the same? Did they weight the same? Were their water lines the same? NO the boats made, shaped by hand came from different boat builders who each had their own ideas of how a boat should be made. And this tradition we have all been going on about if its tradition then shouldn't we all be making canoes to travel across the ocean to find uncharted lands.
The ideas everyone has been coming up with have been great. But we can't just expect things to change for us if its a change we want then we have to get off our butts and do something about it. Remember if one person shouts a message in a group of thousands they wont be heard; but if thousands shout, the message will be heard.
We can always just get these boats and race them unofficial, "It's always easier to beg for forgiveness then ask for permission."
#104 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 3:44pm
Lanaklia Cali raced an non-spec Mirage... sub 200 pound boat in it's last race. They smoked everyone, compared to the week prior when they barely beat a solid Dana Point crew. I'm not certain who paddled in there top two crews, but they placed first and second with the non-spec mirage winning by about 3 minutes in an hour long race.
If, more crews would put there top paddlers in these boats it would force change, or at least force the issue.
#105 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 4:28pm
Kai 'Opua's Mahoe (Twin) and Maehaa (Twin in Tahitian) were built of the same log in 1976. Maehaa is now with Keahiakahoe CC. Of the 24 stations on the waterline form, Mahoe was off at only one station by 1/8" hence, did not meet the specs and could not race in HCRA sanctioned races. The Big Island racing assoc., Moku O Hawaii, has never agreed with HCRA specs so we don't have to race in koas that meet those specs on this island. Of the 15 Big Isl. clubs, 7 have koa canoes that are raced on this island that don't meet those specs. Some of these clubs have a second koa that does meet the specs and thus use those koas to race in regatta so they may qualify in the canoe they will end up taking to the State Regatta Championship race sponsored by HCRA.
The canoes here that don't meet HCRA specs are all faster than the canoes that do. Having said that, we must remember that the crew propells the canoe. A faster designed hull will assist you in getting to the finish line quicker but, how quick or how slow, depends on the crew.
Yes, Mahoe is still racing but is no longer competitive, design wise. This doesn't mean a good crew can't win in her. If her design were updated, she could be much better than she is now....and she could be made to meet the specs if KO so desired.
To answer the question re Mahoe being an Open Class canoe since she doesn't meet HCRA specs. According to MOKU, no, b/c she is still of Hawaiian design. However, the definition of traditional Hawaiian design, whether koa or glass, meets the definition of the Open Class. So technically, the answer is, yes. Two years ago, Waikoloa CC entered their traditional Hawaiian canoe in the Open class due to this definition. Officials had to recognize it. But you know what happens when you beat them at their own game, they immediately make a rule prohibiting that from occurring again.
And you will recall earlier, there exists canoes that are accepted as Hawaiian canoes b/c they "look" like traditional Hawaiian canoes from 'above-the-waterline'. But below the wateline, they are no different than the non-traditional or open class canoes. Does this mean they are non-traditional....NO, the hull designs are Polynesian, both Hawaiian and Tahitian canoes utilize the same design characteristics.
#106 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 5:30pm
Wow that sounds way to confusing. I still like the single hull, with ama, two iakos, and six seats, no engine or motorized parts (although I have no problems racing with a pump in the boat.)
Truckstop what two races were you talking about. Because the Lanakila team raced in a Tahitian boat in the last race. not there 200 lbs mirage.
#107 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 5:54pm
My bad Poppler, I know they purchased a light weight mirage in 2005 and figured it was the same boat when looking at the results on the SCORA site... not exactly in the loop. Sorry for the confusion. I was only referring to the last race at Avila by the way.
#108 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 6:45pm
Yeah that boat was a Tahitian boat "The green Machine" its been residing at the NAC for the past couple of years. And the crew wasn't really a Lanakila crew either, There was two guys from Dana Two from NAC one from Kai Elua and Danny from Lanakila the cool thing about that race was Danny was the oldest guy in the boat at 25. and the average age of the boat was 21.5 but that is besides the point the thing was to race in that boat and try to make it go as fast as possible.
#109 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 7:53pm
Anyone got a photo of that green machine tahitian canoe?
#110 Fri, 06/27/2008 - 8:29pm
I see that a "Lanakila" coed crew also raced and won using the same canoe.
It scored as "unweighed". Were they given the first place medals?
#111 Sat, 06/28/2008 - 5:07pm
Ya, it raced twice and then it went up to Santa Cruz where someone plans on fixing it up I think.
Heres 3 pics I found,
http://www.socaloutrigger.org/images/Pineapple_Express_2008/target44.html
http://www.socaloutrigger.org/images/Pineapple_Express_2008/target131.html
http://www.socaloutrigger.org/images/Pineapple_Express_2008/target132.html
#112 Sat, 06/28/2008 - 6:08pm
got the links working
boat looks like it's got some miles on it...
1
2
3
4
thank goodness water in hawaii is not that flat. it looks unnatural.
#113 Sat, 06/28/2008 - 6:56pm
When you've got one of the pictures up click on it to get the full album. Some cool pictures of canoes getting through the shore break. Looks like more fun than the race.
#114 Sun, 06/29/2008 - 9:38am
Many of the canoes in those pics are rigged with ratchet straps, rubber, and tape. For traditions sake, Hawaii should promote rigging with ropes only. When I'm pushing daisies, I'd hate to look down here (or maybe up) and see that no one knows how to rig with rope any more. The same goes for other endemic canoe traits that are slowly slipping in to obscurity at the risk of being lost forever. We've already lost too much in our culture. Let's keep that which we know, thriving.
#115 Sun, 06/29/2008 - 10:10am
Amen to that, Bill.
#116 Sun, 06/29/2008 - 11:31am
Mahalo for your mana'o Bill!
#117 Sun, 06/29/2008 - 12:25pm
Rope lashings for 'World championship' events yes. Quick'n easy lashings
like rubber or ratchet ties are surely good enough for training and other
events of lower key status.
#118 Sun, 06/29/2008 - 2:21pm
I hear Lanikai is bringing their tahitian designed canoe to the Liliuokalani race in September. Anyone out there know if thats going to happen? They got enough guns to load up several canoes.
#119 Mon, 06/30/2008 - 6:15am
looks like from the photos of the Avila race, Lanakila's green machine stroker did/won the co-ed race AND the men's race...who is that cat?
#120 Mon, 06/30/2008 - 6:57am
If he did stroke two different classes he was going against SCORA's rule #1.7.1 which actually says that in distance races you can only compete in one class per event. Wonder what the thinking is behind that rule? Not like you're gaining an advantage by doing two races back to back.
#121 Mon, 06/30/2008 - 7:09am
It looks like Tyson Poppler, a paddler from Dana Point... Once considered the next Danny Ching by Al Ching and a frequent blogger on this site.
#122 Mon, 06/30/2008 - 2:17pm
Once considered the next Danny Ching? Ouch, that hurts Tyson. Better turn some of that frequent blogging into frequent paddling. Show up on Wednesday and you can use the V1 this week.
#123 Tue, 07/01/2008 - 8:32am
If the nor-cal crew who picked up the "green machine" form the Avila beach race was planning on fixing it up - it would be a lost cause. It's too old and not worth it.
Brings me to another point though - they DO need to throw some fiberglass on to a quarter size hole on the starboard side bow. Lets in some water. And by some I mean the front bulkhead had lots of water that we forgot to drain out before the mens race at avila. So the 2 minutes we had on lanikila's boat should have been 5 or 6 minutes easy...
That boat really does fly with the right crew. Took it out for a few mens practices before shipping it up north and it was bitchen.
And nb1376, don't be giving up the V1 to anyone.
#124 Tue, 07/01/2008 - 8:12pm
toa moana
I'm confussed, what needs to be fixed on it besides the leak in the bow?
#125 Wed, 07/02/2008 - 9:31am
The 2 minute margin isnt very impressive and I'd hate for people to think thats all a Tahtian/Unlimited canoe will do. The fact is I think that everyone that raced at Avila had already raced co-ed, but more importantly, the "green machine" is an "all conditions" canoe and a very poor one at that. Had a fresh crew been in an "A" level Tahitian canoe I bet the margin of victory would have been in the double digits.
#126 Wed, 07/02/2008 - 12:06pm
Its a whole different stroke rate and technique when paddling a tahitian designed canoe. So I think it will take that crew some time to dial in the green machine. Once that happens the gap should increase dramatically.
#127 Wed, 07/02/2008 - 4:51pm
kumunalu
Nothing really needs to be fixed, i was referring to nb1376's post of the club "refinishing" the boat, that would be a never ending job. The rails in certain spots could be fixed up and a lot of sanding where your knees feet and legs will be in the boat would make it more comfortable to paddle. Like I said before though, it is an old canoe.
#128 Thu, 07/03/2008 - 2:19pm
what he means is it's an old canoe. you should just give it to him and he'll take care of it for everyone i'm sure...
#129 Thu, 07/03/2008 - 7:51pm
Gotcha, Thanks for the reply.
#130 Fri, 07/04/2008 - 5:58am
"Its a whole different stroke rate and technique when paddling a tahitian designed canoe"
808waa, could you please elaborate on that?
#131 Fri, 07/04/2008 - 4:35pm
For one thing when you are in one of those canoes, you are closer to the water. So that being said you use shorter paddles and a shorter, faster stroke rate.
#132 Sat, 07/05/2008 - 8:31pm
so if you take that reasoning in reverse, it would be mean that the tahitians change their rate and technique when they use "our" canoes, right?
#133 Sat, 07/05/2008 - 8:52pm
They use many different techniques, they adjust according to the conditions their in. Type of canoe, water conditions its got alot to do with feel.
#134 Sun, 07/06/2008 - 9:21am
dacho you're right... and they have hawaiian canoes in Tahiti, that they use to train for the Molo.
#135 Sun, 07/06/2008 - 6:18pm
Can anyone post what they have observed of the difference in the rocker of Tahitian design canoe hulls? What is the rocker like forward and behind the mid point? Do they have the widest point between seat 3 and 4 or is it further back or are their sides paralelle from seat 1 to seat 6?
Is there any one there who has looked at the hulls of these canoes out of the water? We only ever see their top sides.
#136 Sun, 09/14/2008 - 1:42am
They vary. Some have the same rocker. Some have a wider body aft of center while others are identical.
What's your purpose...building or just wondering?
#137 Mon, 09/15/2008 - 7:57am
Bump for a good re-read.
aloha,
pog
#138 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 12:29pm